Old 09-27-2010, 12:24 AM   #51
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No, a BNSF leader on an NS train should never be excepted. (insert devil grin here) Dash 9's don't count as good power.

Chase, your a pretty good photographer and I love your documentation of signals at night. But whether you like it or not, power is more often than not the focus, therefore power matters. Let me make my own generalization, you're part of the "new breed" of railfans who focus more on the photography aspect than the locomotives. I don't want to sound silly here, but I will risk it because this thread doesn't exactly seem like the "suit and tie" variety anyway.

I don't click on alot of "great" shots because of terrible power. Part of being a good "foamer" is going to find the good stuff and then executing to perfection. Your work is bragging rights, and I know when I go out I generally go out in search of only the best and rarely waste my time with anything else. When I post online, especially to RP, I want it to be something that I can say "ya, I caught that". It's like fishing, would you rather catch a bunch of subpar sunnies or a huge muskie?

Carry on...

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Old 09-27-2010, 01:22 AM   #52
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I see common power as anything that has been in revenue service in the last ~20 years. If you use that, then you will pretty much see what fits and what doesn't. Notice the "generally" also.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:27 AM   #53
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So in that case everything running on class 1's is common power? So a pair of Trash 9's is the same as a pair of SD40-2's? Thats some of the worst logic I've heard in a thread full of it.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:30 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WisconsinCentral
It's like fishing, would you rather catch a bunch of subpar sunnies or a huge muskie?
That's how I describe it! It is also like hunting, especially when you have to hike in to a spot.
As far as the shot goes, I don't understand why cloudy=bad shot. I think that clouds make shots cool many times. I like the rejected shot. I think the clouds are cool.

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So in that case everything running on class 1's is common power? So a pair of Trash 9's is the same as a pair of SD40-2's? Thats some of the worst logic I've heard in a thread full of it.
I agree.
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by nikos1 View Post
So in that case everything running on class 1's is common power? So a pair of Trash 9's is the same as a pair of SD40-2's? Thats some of the worst logic I've heard in a thread full of it.
Also agreed...
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:43 AM   #56
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So in that case everything running on class 1's is common power? So a pair of Trash 9's is the same as a pair of SD40-2's? Thats some of the worst logic I've heard in a thread full of it.
If you think it matters more about what the lead locomotive is than the total scene, I think you are misguided.

Using your shot, a B40-8 is not exactly RARE power (150 built, CSX has about 50 of that), even it is still painted that ugly conrail blue. And realistically speaking, a B40-8 looks pretty near identical to a C40-8 of which there are hundreds running around on various railroads. CSX has over 150, NS has about the same if you count the virtually identical C40-9.

It's not like this is a SD9, GP30, E unit, Alco, or some steam unit. Even if it was, it's pretty rare that the locomotive MAKES the scene. And to your point, it's not gotten to the point where an SD40-2 is some rare thing on the point of a train. You wont ever see them on certain Q trains, but I can railfan any day of the week and see dozens of them.

I think the 2 of you need to let this go, you are both looking like a horses ass. We all know you are a GOD at photoshop at this point, so let it go
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:53 AM   #57
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I couldn't care less what is leading when I'm setup in a great spot. Any train is a train when it is merely a part of a bigger scene. Doors open and rods up be damned.

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Old 09-27-2010, 01:59 AM   #58
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I was simply saying that that was RP's definition. I'm sorry that I worded it wrong. "I see..." was intended to be "I see it as for RP that..."
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everytime i see non-train photos of yours i think, "so much talent. wasted on trains."
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:13 AM   #59
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Troy, I generally agree with most of your posts so let this just be one exception.

B40-8's are pretty much exclusive to the CSX nowadays, atleast for Class 1's. UP's have been in storage for quite some time, although there may be a few rolling around. And looking virtually like something is, I guess, where people differ. I love the CSXT 4617, even though alot of people just write it off now as "just another CSX SD40 body", which is absurd in and of itself because straight SD40 bodies that are rebuilt to -2 standards alone aren't even common. The CSXT 4617 is the LAST straight SD40 active on any Class 1. And an SD40 is much more neat than even that of an SD40-2. Thats a whole other debate, though.

There are alot of good shots with bland power, but for the most part its the power that will make it memorable. It also sparks nostalgia which is something newer power, IMO, can't do.

And actually SD40-2's are a rare thing leading trains, although CSX and CP still allow them to do so rather regularly. BNSF doesn't even have them in the general power pool anymore, UP sure doesn't, KCS doesn't even have any running, and CN's are relegated for the most part as well. So yes, they are rare leaders. But thats also why I love the CSX, because it still happens.

And actually I'm one of those people who prefers engines that are "real", as in running for a purpose other than photos. So therefore I don't get all giddy when the 261, 4449, or any other engine like that runs. Shooting a preserved engine isn't much of a "catch", if you know what I mean.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:27 AM   #60
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I'll sum up my view like this: power matters, but the shot matters more. I have plenty of crappy shots of foreign power from back in the day, but you'll never see me using them in a slideshow. Am I glad that I shot them though? Of course! It amazes me that a lot of the stuff I shot even just in 2006 and 2007 is now history, and I'd rather have a crappy shot than no shot at all.

I like to have my cake and eat it too...that is, I'll go out for good power, but I'll also go pretty far out of my way to ensure that I get a good shot of it. I can't stand sitting through a slideshow of roster shots/wedgies of foreign power all day long, nor can I sit through a slideshow of nicely composed photos with nothing but CSX ES44DCs all day long. To say you won't go to one side or another on occasion regardless of your perspective is stupid IMO however...two example shots:

Image © Nick Wilson
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A pretty generic wedgie, but I only had a couple of minutes of sunlight to play with...and when is the next time I would likely have a repeat of this scene out on the east coast?

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Just some CSX widecab GEs, why bother shooting them? Because I can get a damn good shot, that's why! There's not always a pair of oh-so-rare BNSF Dash 9s (very, very heavy sarcasm) around the corner, so a couple of Erie's monotonous products in a coat of Yn3 will have to suffice.

My point is, we all have our likes and dislikes in this hobby - to say someone else is wrong for what they enjoy is pretty childish. Go shoot some trains, be happy, and quit arguing.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:35 AM   #61
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"I'll go out for good power, but I'll also go pretty far out of my way to ensure that I get a good shot of it"

My thoughts exactly.

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Old 09-27-2010, 02:43 AM   #62
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My thoughts on rail fanning exactly Alec. However I will note that BNSF still runs SD40-2's on regular trains out our way at least.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:46 AM   #63
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Troy, I generally agree with most of your posts so let this just be one exception.

B40-8's are pretty much exclusive to the CSX nowadays, atleast for Class 1's. UP's have been in storage for quite some time, although there may be a few rolling around. And looking virtually like something is, I guess, where people differ.
Look I hear what you are saying to some degree, but let me say a statement or 2

How many really mediocre shots of the "UP Heritage units", the "rock island" Iowa Interstate unit, the NS F units and I could name a couple more examples are there in the database?

Also, I have no idea as to the status of UP's B39/40-8's, BNSF still has some too, ex ATSF. But my whole point was, it's hard for me to get nostalgic about a B40-8 that is really virtually identical to a C40-8 except for the trucks and a door or 2.

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I love the CSXT 4617, even though alot of people just write it off now as "just another CSX SD40 body", which is absurd in and of itself because straight SD40 bodies that are rebuilt to -2 standards alone aren't even common. The CSXT 4617 is the LAST straight SD40 active on any Class 1. And an SD40 is much more neat than even that of an SD40-2. Thats a whole other debate, though.
It is a whole nother debate, but CSX has (or had) a bunch of rebuilt SD40's in the 8400 class I believe that were visibly identical

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There are alot of good shots with bland power, but for the most part its the power that will make it memorable. It also sparks nostalgia which is something newer power, IMO, can't do.
I really have to disagree with you on that statement, 90% of the time, to me it does not make a difference if a NS -9 is leading or if it's a SD35 or U25C. It's the composition, exposure and overall quality of the scene. Can that scene be ENHANCED to some degree if something rare is leading? Sure, but to me, it does not make it we will have to disagree on this one.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:01 AM   #64
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If you think it matters more about what the lead locomotive is than the total scene, I think you are misguided.
I think this is the first time I have ever had a full, nodding-my-head agreement with one of Troy's blunt opinions. Very well stated.

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I couldn't care less what is leading when I'm setup in a great spot. Any train is a train when it is merely a part of a bigger scene. Doors open and rods up be damned.
This is in complete concurrence with my philosophy: I want to capture a scene depicting a train passing through it, not necessarily just flatly state: Here's a train. I try to avoid wedgies as much as possible because I generally find them boring (a product of living and shooting in Indiana for five years), and I count myself lucky that I live in a region where wedgie-type compositions are the exception rather than the commonplace. I can't say that I've never passed up shooting a train because of its power, but I can say that I've never passed up a shot in beautiful light because the train had crap/common/non-WGRF-compliant power. Do I take pleasure in having an interesting unit on the point of a train? Sure, but that won't make or break what I'm trying to accomplish.

Having said that, do I denigrate those who feel the need to shoot every possible train in every possible spot, or who feel the technically-perfect wedgie is the ultimate expression of their vision for depicting a train? Of course not; I simply choose not to view such work unless I see something therein which interests me.

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There are alot of good shots with bland power, but for the most part its the power that will make it memorable. It also sparks nostalgia which is something newer power, IMO, can't do.
Really? Two of my most memorable shots on here -- "the poop shot" and "the three points of light shot" -- don't even have visible power. That shot which by now many of you are probably sick of seeing that's showing up all over the place in Trains as they advertise their 2010 Photo Contest? No power. My recent "trifecta" shot on here? Only 0.8% of its views have been from external links -- I'd say that 11,950+ views directly from inside RP is pretty good indication of "memorable," and "nostalgia" was pretty directly expressed in this email I received with regard to that photo:

Quote:
Your fabulous photo of CN + CP in Black Canyon is of particular interest to me as my (family name redacted) ancestry came from that very property.
There are many other photographers' works on here I could bring into a discussion about how memorable or nostalgia-inducing they are, but -- with all due respect for them -- this post is long enough. My point is: Our philosophies of what to shoot may be different, but to make a blanket statement that "its [sic] the power that will make it memorable" is quite disingenuous.

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My point is, we all have our likes and dislikes in this hobby - to say someone else is wrong for what they enjoy is pretty childish. Go shoot some trains, be happy, and quit arguing.
Exxxxactly. Just because my railfan god plants forests while someone else's carefully aligns rivets doesn't mean that either approach is incorrect; they're just different ways of building a big picture.
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Old 09-27-2010, 03:31 AM   #65
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Memorable to you and memorable to everyone else viewing the shot is a different story. Does it matter which one it satisfies? No, but just because you have one example of someone having a connection with a shot of yours proves nothing other than coincidence.

What I mean by memorable or nostalgia is when you see something such as this:

Image © Chuck Schwesinger
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Photograph © Chuck Schwesinger


And you say "Wow, it sure isn't like that anymore", etc, etc.

That is the "power" of the power. I never said you can't get good shots without good power, I only stated that alot of those shots can be made "perfect" with certain power.

Thanks for the little [sic] stab as well, David. No better way to make a point but to try and tear the argument down by trying to insult my intelligence.

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Old 09-27-2010, 03:34 AM   #66
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"How many really mediocre shots of the "UP Heritage units", the "rock island" Iowa Interstate unit, the NS F units and I could name a couple more examples are there in the database?"

I totally agree. And way too many, but thats not exactly the type of power I'm talking about. Im not much of a fan of any of those engines anyway, other than maybe the sleek looking NS F's.

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Old 09-27-2010, 03:56 AM   #67
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If you think it matters more about what the lead locomotive is than the total scene, I think you are misguided.

Using your shot, a B40-8 is not exactly RARE power (150 built, CSX has about 50 of that), even it is still painted that ugly conrail blue. And realistically speaking, a B40-8 looks pretty near identical to a C40-8 of which there are hundreds running around on various railroads. CSX has over 150, NS has about the same if you count the virtually identical C40-9.

It's not like this is a SD9, GP30, E unit, Alco, or some steam unit. Even if it was, it's pretty rare that the locomotive MAKES the scene. And to your point, it's not gotten to the point where an SD40-2 is some rare thing on the point of a train. You wont ever see them on certain Q trains, but I can railfan any day of the week and see dozens of them.

I think the 2 of you need to let this go, you are both looking like a horses ass. We all know you are a GOD at photoshop at this point, so let it go
Not misguided, I can roll both ways, there are times when the lead unit trumps the scene, and times when its the other way around.
A B40-8 is fairly rare in the scheme of things today. How many 4 axle GE's of any make can you see running right now on class 1's? As Alec says, not many outside of CSX. The blue paint may not mean much to you but it is to me and many other people, its going going gone right now. In this case i'd say the combination of the model and paint is pretty rare, not to mention the long hood forward running on CSX.
If you cant tell the difference between a C40-8 and B40-8 you are very unobservant to say the least.... Thats just like saying a SD40-2 and a GP40-2 are the same.....
Tophats have their own unique flavor with the AC box on the roof and the rollerblade trucks.
And still disagree, there has to be a reason people go out to chase things like heritage units or in my case leasers and CR blue units.
You live near bone valley florida so your perception on the rarity of SD40-2's is pretty skewed, around here CSX runs nothing but garbage and NS a mix though they have gotten alot better.
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:06 AM   #68
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My point is, we all have our likes and dislikes in this hobby - to say someone else is wrong for what they enjoy is pretty childish. Go shoot some trains, be happy, and quit arguing.
I think this sums things up quite well and saves me a good bit of rambling.
Railpictures caters to a wide array of audiences, from roster and wedgie shooters to the more artistic shooters. Theres no one way to shoot for RP, great pictures of trains, and pictures of great trains are both perfectly legitimate.
Alec has also made some good points, I will remember chasing a quartet of KCS SD50's down the old CofG and all the lead up to it long after I will forget what the circumstances of my top viewed shot on RP is (which is a upside down coal hopper or some crap like that)
I guess some people like pretty pictures and some like pretty power, I like both and its nice when you have those days when you get to have your cake and eat it too.
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:19 AM   #69
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Thanks for clarifying your point, Alec.

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Thanks for the little [sic] stab as well, David. No better way to make a point but to try and tear the argument down by trying to insult my intelligence.
Attempting to insult your intelligence? Not at all. My Technical Communications professor always stressed that accurately citing sources was critical to avoid replicating mistakes, and when a mistake was found to note it so that readers would understand it wasn't my introduction of the mistake.

C'mon, everybody misses letters when typing and doesn't catch everything when proof reading; is it really such a big deal that I reverted to my training when authoring a post on an internet forum? I'm astounded that this thread's participants are so hell-bent on criticizing everyone else that a fundamental writing concept is being misconstrued as a personal attack.
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Old 09-27-2010, 04:28 AM   #70
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No bad blood, admittedly I didn't really have to bring it up. No big deal. On another note it seems everyone in this thread is coming around to an agreement of some sort. So I suppose I might as well. Glad this thread took the scenic route lol...

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Old 09-27-2010, 11:31 AM   #71
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If you cant tell the difference between a C40-8 and B40-8 you are very unobservant to say the least.... Thats just like saying a SD40-2 and a GP40-2 are the same.....
Again, like I said before, unless we are getting into door counting or rivet scrutinizing, they are virtually identical except for the truck and nothing to get into a tizzy over. Your comparison between a GP40-2 and SD40-2 is a little less valid because they have many visible differences BESIDES the truck. Also there were many as-built variations including headlight placement, horn placement, dynamic brakes or not, radiator type, etc. All standard cab GE's were identical except for CR's got the red marker lights.

The C40-8 is 70' 8" in length over the couplers and stands 15' 11" high over the horns, and 16' 1" over the antenna
The unit is 10' 3" wide over the handrails and 11' 8" over the awnings
Distance between the bolsters is 43' 4"

The B40-8 is 66' 4" in length over the couplers and stands 15' 5" high over the horns
The unit is 10' 10" wide over the awnings
Distance between the bolsters is 40' 2"
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Old 09-27-2010, 01:47 PM   #72
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In this day and age, if you shoot only "rare" power on the Class 1s, I'd guess your camera stays in the bag 99% of the time. It's been a few yers since I saw a B40-8 at all, certainly since I sa one (or two!) that were still blue. Every railfan is different and there should be no right or wrong way, but I'd chase the train Nikos saw all day if I could. CSX has been using almost nothing but GE wide noses in and around Columbia lately. It's even been a few weeks since I've seen a GP40-2 and road slug for local service.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:30 PM   #73
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Maybe if you weren't home schooled you wouldn't make stupid generalizations like that.
Got to take up for homeschooled kids here. Before we made the decision that my wife would re enter the work force, she homeschooled our son for their kindergarten year. His first and second grade teacher without fail said he was further along than the other kids in his class and wanted to know where he had went to school before moving to Columbia. (To which I replied, "home.")

Our daughter who was youger than Michael picked up on a lot of the stuff too even though she as not yet in "school."

When I went back to technical college in my early 30s, the best student in class was a girl who had been homeschooled. She was in her second year of college, but her first year of Teleproduction Technology, the course that teaches you TV news photography. Second year,but she was only 17; she'd already completed her high schooling and was waiting on the local university to accept her. They had initially said she was too young.

We'd still be homeschooling our kids today if we could afford it both financially and time wise. My sister in law gave us grief about homeschooling. This is usually what people who don't understand homeschooling do. But even as she was giving us grief, her son was caught in the boys room at his school smoking with another kid his age.

They were seven at the time.
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:50 PM   #74
travsirocz
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Who cares what the power is right? Damn train could be running backwards (EOT first) and I would still try and make the shot as a whole work.

I don't know how many of you out there have ever picked up an actual railroad photography book off a bookshelf, but the images as a whole is what fills 80% or more of the pages. On top of that, all those photos were more then likely common power when they were taken but look like special power 20 years later when they hit the stores between to hard covers.

Last edited by travsirocz; 09-27-2010 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 09-27-2010, 06:18 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
Got to take up for homeschooled kids here. Before we made the decision that my wife would re enter the work force, she homeschooled our son for their kindergarten year. His first and second grade teacher without fail said he was further along than the other kids in his class and wanted to know where he had went to school before moving to Columbia. (To which I replied, "home.")

Our daughter who was youger than Michael picked up on a lot of the stuff too even though she as not yet in "school."

When I went back to technical college in my early 30s, the best student in class was a girl who had been homeschooled. She was in her second year of college, but her first year of Teleproduction Technology, the course that teaches you TV news photography. Second year,but she was only 17; she'd already completed her high schooling and was waiting on the local university to accept her. They had initially said she was too young.

We'd still be homeschooling our kids today if we could afford it both financially and time wise. My sister in law gave us grief about homeschooling. This is usually what people who don't understand homeschooling do. But even as she was giving us grief, her son was caught in the boys room at his school smoking with another kid his age.

They were seven at the time.
Joe,

Neat! I wasn't aware you had homeschooled your son. Interesting! You said you couldn't financially fund it.. If it is anything like West Virginia, the books you can use free of charge from the BOE and you take the annual test through them..

No monthly lunch bills, no gasoline money spent transporting to/from school, no school pictures, and no shopping for backpacks, school supplies, etc.

Chase
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