Old 05-27-2020, 04:04 PM   #1
TedG
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Default New COVID symptom: crooked eyesight

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...76&key=2744975

This is actually the second rejection of this image for "horizon unlevel-leaning left". I had rescanned in order to maximize the distance between the last car and the right border, and applied some CW rotation. Dead center of the photo goes through the "M" in "FAMILY"; the closest handrail posts look perfectly vertical to me. What am I missing? Should I be using a different reference point for true vertical? Thanks for any suggestions.
/Ted
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Old 05-27-2020, 05:18 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by TedG View Post
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...76&key=2744975
This is actually the second rejection of this image for "horizon unlevel-leaning left". I had rescanned in order to maximize the distance between the last car and the right border, and applied some CW rotation. Dead center of the photo goes through the "M" in "FAMILY"; the closest handrail posts look perfectly vertical to me. What am I missing? Should I be using a different reference point for true vertical? Thanks for any suggestions.
/Ted
Ted,

For photos like this, with no permanent vertical references, I use corners of hoods or cabs. Handrails usually are inconsistent, relatively short, and are easily bent. Looks to me like you need a full 1.0 degree clockwise rotation.

Click image for larger version

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ID:	9800
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Old 05-27-2020, 05:35 PM   #3
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Ted,

For photos like this, with no permanent vertical references, I use corners of hoods or cabs. Handrails usually are inconsistent, relatively short, and are easily bent. Looks to me like you need a full 1.0 degree clockwise rotation.

Attachment 9800
I agree. 1 degree works pretty well. The shot just didn't look right at first glance, but where it's taken in a slight curve and no real solid vertical references, I adjusted until it looked right and 1 degree did it.

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Old 05-27-2020, 05:54 PM   #4
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Thanks, gentlemen. I appreciate having a second (and third) set of eyes on it. I'll give one degree CW a shot.
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Old 05-27-2020, 07:16 PM   #5
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Ted, are you using a grid in your software to check level? That really helps. I have had shots that I swear were level, only to put the grid on them and find out they were off enough to be really annoying to guys like Jim Thias. I not only use the grid to check the center level, I use it to correct perspective and make the verticals at the edges as good as I can make them, without losing anything important.
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Old 05-27-2020, 07:29 PM   #6
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..correct perspective and make the verticals at the edges as good as I can make them..
Bless you!

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Last edited by bigbassloyd; 05-27-2020 at 07:30 PM. Reason: Made it bigger for the drone em up high boys to see it.
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Old 05-27-2020, 10:08 PM   #7
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Ted, are you using a grid in your software to check level? That really helps. I have had shots that I swear were level, only to put the grid on them and find out they were off enough to be really annoying to guys like Jim Thias. I not only use the grid to check the center level, I use it to correct perspective and make the verticals at the edges as good as I can make them, without losing anything important.
Kevin,
I only wish that I could "eyeball" level like Jim Thias. I don't typically use a grid (unless there's an architectural element that demands perspective correction), but usually just drop a vertical guide line (PS Elements 11) at the center of the photo or at whatever element in the photo I've chosen as a "known true vertical", and straighten from there. Trust me, I know better by now than to rely on my "eyeballing" it.

Might be a pre-existing condition of mine, or maybe the house has settled to 1 degree off from vertical.
/Ted
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Old 05-28-2020, 07:37 AM   #8
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Interesting - I noticed it off CCW instantly. Maybe I got your "next day" look at it, first.

I have Lightroom installed on my computer - comes with Photoshop for a monthly $9.99 fee. It happens to have BOTH automatic level and perspective correction - an RP lifesaver, lol - save you a few days of uploading.

Other than that - Kevin's grid is a good idea. I get lazy and minimize the screen, then drag the image past one edge of the screen and use the edge to see how true the verticals (or horizontals) are in the image. I'll say one thing - those hand rails must be leaning 1 degree clockwise, lol. But the lean in the locomotive lines is apparent, barely. You can sometimes line up numbers, too.

Nice that admin got around to noting the direction of lean some time ago.

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Old 05-28-2020, 03:24 PM   #9
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Image © Ted Grumbine
PhotoID: 737660
Photograph © Ted Grumbine

Thanks to all for the input.
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Old 05-28-2020, 09:56 PM   #10
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Ted, are you using a grid in your software to check level? That really helps. I have had shots that I swear were level, only to put the grid on them and find out they were off enough to be really annoying to guys like Jim Thias. I not only use the grid to check the center level, I use it to correct perspective and make the verticals at the edges as good as I can make them, without losing anything important.
There is no reason to use a grid. Just use the ruler tool and guide lines in photoshop to level photos and you're all good.
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:32 PM   #11
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There is no reason to use a grid. Just use the ruler tool and guide lines in photoshop to level photos and you're all good.
Hi Jim,

I'm a Lightroom user, so Photoshop is a bit foreign to me. I use PSE whenever I need certain tools for cloning, etc., but I primarily use LR. I bought the last version of LR that was offered standalone and so far, I've managed to stave off the need to do the subscription thing. When I move to my next computer, things will likely have to change. Fortunately, there are some competitors out there, such as Luminar and Capture One. If I can find something that offers me the ability to never have to SAVE anything, as well as the ability to manage several terabytes of files, (LR has both), I could be convinced to finally flip off Adobe for good.
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Old 05-29-2020, 05:27 PM   #12
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...If I can find something that offers me the ability to never have to SAVE anything...
What's so bad about having to SAVE something?
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:24 PM   #13
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What's so bad about having to SAVE something?
Maybe he will elaborate(sorry you probably know more than i) but I'd have to assume LR keeps a log of your changes in a sidecart or catalog somewhat like the RAW converter does so you do not have to save the whole file, you only have the changes file . Not sure how that works with a scan when I have zillion clones and spot commands.

Plus I often have several saves, depending on where it is going. As far as space, even a 6400pixel jpg save does not take that much space as I only process a few from any folder. Of course a different workflow could be a problem.

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Old 05-30-2020, 02:07 AM   #14
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Maybe he will elaborate(sorry you probably know more than i) but I'd have to assume LR keeps a log of your changes in a sidecart or catalog somewhat like the RAW converter does so you do not have to save the whole file, you only have the changes file.
Bob
Ding, ding, ding ding!!! Winner!

Yes, that's exactly how Lightroom works. Picture a raw converter, like ACR, except with the entire tool set that Lightroom has (Tone Curve, Color Controls, Sharpening, Noise Reduction, Cloning, Adjustment Brushes, Grad Filters, Cropping, etc.). Lightroom acts like a big ACR with a ton of functionality and I only SAVE when I output a TIFF or a JPEG, and even then I can still go back and continue editing, right where I left off. I can SEE all of the changes I have made to the file and I can back those changes out. The problem with Photoshop is that after you've done a ton of things to your file, you have to save it before you go to bed....or perhaps leave your computer on overnight. Unless you put each separate change on a different layer and saved it all as a big honkin' TIFF with the layer structure in place, your ability to go back later and adjust individual changes, or back them out will be severely impaired. You'd have to hope you kept a notebook of what you did, because depending on the nature of the change you decide you need later, you might have to start over.

Here's a quick example. I make a ton of changes to a file, then output a JPEG and upload to RP. After I upload, I notice something and realize the image is not level (Yikes!!!) It needs a pretty good crank CCW. I quickly delete it from the queue before it gets screened. Guess what? If all I have is a flattened TIFF from Photoshop, and I make that rotation, I will likely have to re-crop smaller and I stand to lose content near the edges which could diminish the impact of the photo. To fix it right, I basically have to go back and edit the raw from scratch....again, hopefully from good notes. With Lightroom, it's not even a 2 minute fix. I go back to the Develop Module, rotate the image to get it level, re-adjust the crop and re-export as a JPEG. Done.

The only reason I can see to use Photoshop and layers is if that's all you're used to.
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:26 AM   #15
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Default 2x Unlevel

https://www.railpictures.net/viewrej...36&key=7433827

https://www.railpictures.net/viewrej...25&key=2820055

I got rejections of these images for "horizon unlevel-leaning right".

Distance between the two photo points is about 200 m (650 ft) and there is a slight grade.

I referred to the poles next to the loco(s) and adjusted accordingly. Any further CCW rotation is no solution.

Should I note the grade in "Comments to Screeners"?
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Old 06-02-2020, 03:17 PM   #16
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[quote=Reinhard;196658]https://www.railpictures.net/viewrej...36&key=7433827

https://www.railpictures.net/viewrej...25&key=2820055

I got rejections of these images for "horizon unlevel-leaning right".

Distance between the two photo points is about 200 m (650 ft) and there is a slight grade.

I referred to the poles next to the loco(s) and adjusted accordingly. Any further CCW rotation is no solution.


--------------------------------------------------------

From Jim Thias above :There is no reason to use a grid. Just use the ruler tool and guide lines in photoshop to level photos and you're all good.

Number one looks like it could use some adjustment, number 2 ?? a tad.

I'd adjust both submitting one at a time and notating, getting those uprights lined up with the ruler. As with most, his is not a matter of right or wrong.

Also as Mitch mentioned in RAW I use the auto leveling adjustment which seems to spot all the verticals and make them level whether that is the reality or not.

Bob
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Old 06-02-2020, 05:46 PM   #17
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It needs at least 1 degree CCW rotation, with some minor adjustment made to address lens distortion.

It needs around .75 degrees CCW rotation, with moderate adjustments made for lens distortion.

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Old 06-02-2020, 07:52 PM   #18
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So a grotesquely stretched SD70 gets accepted, while 2 photos that "need" ever-so-slight CCW adjustment get rejected. Some photo editors won't even do such fine tweaks. I'll bet 99% of viewers would be fine with the German photos as submitted.
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