Old 12-14-2008, 03:37 AM   #26
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With DX you get "pixel density" and with FX you get dynamic range and high ISO capabilities. The person above was correct about the 200mm point. Whichever works for you brother! If you need to be budget minded, buy the D300 and forget anything else except good glass. If you buy the D700, forget everything else and buy good glass!! See the connection? good DSLR= good glass.... Both ideas work great according to your orientation and format.

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Old 12-14-2008, 04:10 AM   #27
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You are kidding I hope? Just making sure.

http://www.resellerratings.com/store...Digital_Direct
Thanks for providing that link!!!! It sure did sound too good to be true!

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Old 12-14-2008, 04:24 AM   #28
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Thanks for providing that link!!!! It sure did sound too good to be true!

Jon
HAHA Its ok. Alot of scams out there.
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Old 12-14-2008, 08:15 AM   #29
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Hi all,Title explains it all. Trying to decide between the D300 and D700. For my purposes, pretty much the only difference between these two particular models is the D700 is full frame and about $1,000 more.Right now I'm leaning towards the D300. In addition to the body I'm also upgrading glass as well. To get the D700 I would have to give up one of the new lens. They way I figure; lens are gonna last longer than the body, buy the highest level, full frame compatible glass and have the body catch up later.Any suggestions?
*Judging by the glass you currently have, the way to go is with the D300 and take the extra $1000 left over and put it toward good glass. The resolving power of the full frame sensor is much more brutal on lenses than on crop cameras and demands only the best glass. Get the D300, buy yourself some top quality glass and in a couple years when it comes time to upgrade to a newer body you then move up to a full frame sensor.*Oh yeah, and good quality lenses will outlast any camera body you use not to mention the glass will also hold pretty good resale value. I have several lenses in my collection and my 3 main lenses are all Canon L series lenses. The first of these is a 5 year old Canon 100-400L IS. I bought it refurbished for $1100 5 years ago and could turn around and sell it for that today. And while this lens is 5 years old, I am on my 3rd digital body in that same 5 year period, having started with a Canon D30, then a 10D and currently shooting with a 30D. I'll still be using that same lens when I move up to yet another camera body sometime later in 2009.*Bryan Jones*Brooks,KY
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:58 AM   #30
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It certainly wouldn't be worth the extra $$ to me. I like the crop factor, as 80% of my photos are taken with a zoom lens.
I'd buy the cheaper body and a kick ass prime lens.
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Old 12-15-2008, 03:16 AM   #31
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It certainly wouldn't be worth the extra $$ to me. I like the crop factor, as 80% of my photos are taken with a zoom lens.
I'd buy the cheaper body and a kick ass prime lens.
What do zoom lenses have to do with this? Telephoto primes are available if that's what you're talking about.
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Old 12-16-2008, 03:40 AM   #32
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Currently I shoot with a D200 and a bunch of manual prime and telephotolenses (no zooms, no AF). I'm right on the edge of getting a D300 to suppliment my D200 now that the price is the lowest I've seen it. D700 is too rich for my blood... and I get great results with the D200, so do I really need to go with a D700. I don't think so (not right now anyways). The AF improvements are lost on me with my manual lenses, but I really want a second camera for flexibility so I don't have to do rapid lens swaps in the "heat of battle".

Good glass is nice only if you can take it with you as you buy newer bodies over the years. If yes, then the glass will always be worth the money.

Since it's been mentioned here, I'm wondering if my old fashioned manual lenses are an issue with the FX sensor (just incase the D700's price drops by half over Christmas... yeah, right)?
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Old 12-16-2008, 05:43 AM   #33
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The larger viewfinder of the D700 (even compared to the D300) would be a huge help in manual focusing.
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Old 12-16-2008, 10:22 AM   #34
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What do zoom lenses have to do with this? Telephoto primes are available if that's what you're talking about.
Just worded wrong Mike, He likes the telephoto end of things, and so do i.
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:27 PM   #35
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The larger viewfinder of the D700 (even compared to the D300) would be a huge help in manual focusing.
Yeah, I bet it would be... but worth an extra $1500 CDN (based on the current cost of a D300)? I have looked into magnifying eyepieces, but for what I do, 99% of my shooting is at infinity, so the extra cash wouldn't be prudent. A split screen (like on my old F3's) would be much better for focusing.

IIRC and if I understand it right, on my D200 and on a D300 with a 1.5 crop factor my 200mm telephoto becomes a 350mm. Does that mean that my 200mm on a full frame sensor (D700) would be a 200mm. Am I right? For that matter, was my 200mm when mounted on my old Nikon F3 SLR camera also a 200mm?
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:58 PM   #36
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IIRC and if I understand it right, on my D200 and on a D300 with a 1.5 crop factor my 200mm telephoto becomes a 350mm. Does that mean that my 200mm on a full frame sensor (D700) would be a 200mm. Am I right? For that matter, was my 200mm when mounted on my old Nikon F3 SLR camera also a 200mm?
I think you are the second person to multiply some version of 2 by 1.5 and get 3.5 instead of three! There was another thread where someone did 20 x 1.5 = 35. Must be something in the drinking water ...

Anyway, your lens is 200mm on the D700 and the F3. It is, in terms of physics, a 200mm on any camera. However, on a crop sensor body the sensor is only capturing the middle of what the lens is putting out and the field of view is equivalent to 300mm.
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:32 PM   #37
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I think you are the second person to multiply some version of 2 by 1.5 and get 3.5 instead of three! There was another thread where someone did 20 x 1.5 = 35. Must be something in the drinking water ...
Nope, not the water... been on Buckley's and Benilyn w/codine for two weeks now. Has a tendancy to mess one up a wee bit. Me fail math, that's unpossible...

I think I get what you're saying regarding crop sensor vs. full as it applies to my manual lenses... I don't have to worry about any DX/FX issues since my lenses are stone age. Some are older than some RP members!
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Old 12-16-2008, 03:13 PM   #38
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I think I get what you're saying regarding crop sensor vs. full as it applies to my manual lenses... I don't have to worry about any DX/FX issues since my lenses are stone age. Some are older than some RP members!
I was just in a mood to give the technically correct answer. The focal length of a lens is what it is, but results vary depending on what sort of a body/sensor you attach it to. It isn't necessarily wrong to say it is a 300mm lens when on a DX body, but it isn't necessarily correct either.

Good luck with the medication; hope you are off it soon.
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Old 12-16-2008, 08:14 PM   #39
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Me fail math, that's unpossible...
Sounds oddly familiar.
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Old 12-16-2008, 09:20 PM   #40
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Just worded wrong Mike, He likes the telephoto end of things, and so do i.
It still doesn't make a difference. With a FX/full frame camera you can reach 300mm without spending much. If you're interested in supertelephoto then a DX/cropped sensor would be useful but I don't think you are.
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Old 12-17-2008, 10:14 PM   #41
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John, FWIW, I broke down today and picked up a D300 and MB-D10 for less than what I paid for my D200 only two years ago. Looked at that D700, but the D300 was half it's price. I was looking for a deal, not a D700, so I'm pleased. Haven't taken it out for a spin yet, but with two dumps of snow forecast between now and the end of the weekend, I will be putting some miles on it real soon.
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Old 12-17-2008, 10:31 PM   #42
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John, FWIW, I broke down today and picked up a D300 and MB-D10 for less than what I paid for my D200 only two years ago. Looked at that D700, but the D300 was half it's price. I was looking for a deal, not a D700, so I'm pleased. Haven't taken it out for a spin yet, but with two dumps of snow forecast between now and the end of the weekend, I will be putting some miles on it real soon.
Congrats Mike! The D300 is a great camera and you will enjoy it alot. It is amazing how much digital cameras have gone down in price in the past few years.
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Old 12-18-2008, 12:14 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mike B.
It still doesn't make a difference. With a FX/full frame camera you can reach 300mm without spending much. If you're interested in supertelephoto then a DX/cropped sensor would be useful but I don't think you are.
Think of it this way, you can get a good 70-200 mm F2.8 for $1500 or so or a 300 F2.8 for $3500 to 4000+

200mm X 1.5 =300mm so if you spend the cash to get full frame you will have to spend a lot more to get the look of a 300 2.8 . I don't see why some one needs full frame if your not a pro. A 12MP 1.5 camera will do all a fan will ever need to do. Evan night shots with the new camera are better then the old full frames or closes to it.
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Old 12-18-2008, 02:11 PM   #44
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Congrats Mike! The D300 is a great camera and you will enjoy it alot. It is amazing how much digital cameras have gone down in price in the past few years.
Yes it is.

It's also amazing how the manual has grown from the convenient D200 leaflet to the D300's tome. I've got some reading to do... right after I finish the National Dream (again).
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:44 PM   #45
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Think of it this way, you can get a good 70-200 mm F2.8 for $1500 or so or a 300 F2.8 for $3500 to 4000+

200mm X 1.5 =300mm so if you spend the cash to get full frame you will have to spend a lot more to get the look of a 300 2.8 . I don't see why some one needs full frame if your not a pro. A 12MP 1.5 camera will do all a fan will ever need to do. Evan night shots with the new camera are better then the old full frames or closes to it.
The issue arises if you're looking for the magnification of the 300mm lens as opposed to the field of vision (where the 200mm on a 1.5 crop is equivalent to a 300 on a full frame). If you're looking at it from the standpoint of railroad photography, it may not make that much of a difference to the average individual. However, assuming the lens quality is equal, the 300mm lens should give you more detail than the 200mm when shooting a distant object.

Jon
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Old 12-18-2008, 03:55 PM   #46
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The issue arises if you're looking for the magnification of the 300mm lens as opposed to the field of vision (where the 200mm on a 1.5 crop is equivalent to a 300 on a full frame). If you're looking at it from the standpoint of railroad photography, it may not make that much of a difference to the average individual. However, assuming the lens quality is equal, the 300mm lens should give you more detail than the 200mm when shooting a distant object.
This does not make sense to me. Aren't magnification and field of vision the same thing? Put another way, use the 300 on a full frame and the 200 on a 1.5x crop body and shoot from the same spot at the same target and you will get exactly the same image content in both cases. So exactly the same field of view, exactly the same magnification.

What will differ is the quality of the sensor behind the lenses. And sure, the Canon 5D II may exceed the 40D in image quality, but the 40D will probably exceed an older full frame body, such as the Canon 1Ds.

So what you are getting in full frame is the quality of the pixels on the larger sensor (putting aside other benefits, like more wide angle lens choices). You will get more detail if the sensor captures more detail for the same light falling upon it.
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:25 PM   #47
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This does not make sense to me. Aren't magnification and field of vision the same thing? Put another way, use the 300 on a full frame and the 200 on a 1.5x crop body and shoot from the same spot at the same target and you will get exactly the same image content in both cases. So exactly the same field of view, exactly the same magnification.

What will differ is the quality of the sensor behind the lenses. And sure, the Canon 5D II may exceed the 40D in image quality, but the 40D will probably exceed an older full frame body, such as the Canon 1Ds.

So what you are getting in full frame is the quality of the pixels on the larger sensor (putting aside other benefits, like more wide angle lens choices). You will get more detail if the sensor captures more detail for the same light falling upon it.
You're getting the same image content, but not the same magnification. Think of it this way - the 200mm lens is taking in about a 10 degree field of view, but because the crop sensor behind the lens doesn't get all of the information (hence a "crop"), the image you see is about a 6.5 degree field of view. The sensor isn't actually getting all the data the lens is taking in (your viewfinder compensates and shows you only the crop).

With a 300mm lens on a full-frame sensor, the lens sees a 6.5 degree field of view, and the sensor sees that same 6.5 degree field of view. Hence, the sensor records all the data that comes into the lens, not just a fraction of it.

That's why you would expect to get higher detail from a 300mm lens on a full frame than a 200mm on a crop on an object shot from the same distance. You should be able to blow up the image taken with the 300mm lense bigger than with the 200mm lens without losing detail, in other words . . .


Another way to look at it would be to think in terms of putting blinders on (like on a horse). The blinders reduce your field of view (as the crop sensor does), but that doesn't magnify the things you see in that field of view because you haven't changed the focal length of your eyes.

Jon
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:56 PM   #48
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You're getting the same image content, but not the same magnification. Think of it this way - the 200mm lens is taking in about a 10 degree field of view, but because the crop sensor behind the lens doesn't get all of the information (hence a "crop"), the image you see is about a 6.5 degree field of view. The sensor isn't actually getting all the data the lens is taking in (your viewfinder compensates and shows you only the crop).

With a 300mm lens on a full-frame sensor, the lens sees a 6.5 degree field of view, and the sensor sees that same 6.5 degree field of view. Hence, the sensor records all the data that comes into the lens, not just a fraction of it.

That's why you would expect to get higher detail from a 300mm lens on a full frame than a 200mm on a crop on an object shot from the same distance. You should be able to blow up the image taken with the 300mm lense bigger than with the 200mm lens without losing detail, in other words . . .
If you have the same image content, you must have the same magnification.

We don't care about all of the data coming into any lens, just what is recorded. What is recorded is the same in both cases, identical images.

You can only blow up an image more if there is more detail recorded, and that is a function of a) the ability of the sensor to record detail, such as through more pixels and b) the ability of the lens to resolve detail through the quality of its optics. It does not depend on the focal length of the glass.

Quote:
Another way to look at it would be to think in terms of putting blinders on (like on a horse). The blinders reduce your field of view (as the crop sensor does), but that doesn't magnify the things you see in that field of view because you haven't changed the focal length of your eyes.

Jon
Correct, "doesn't magnify," or the opposite, removing the blinders does not reduce magnification. Changing the field of view does not change magnification. If you are standing in one spot and capture a particular field of view from that spot, the magnification is the same regardless of whether you use one lens and capture the entire image it projects onto a sensor or use a different lens and capture only a part of the image it projects.
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Old 12-18-2008, 04:58 PM   #49
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Yes it is.

It's also amazing how the manual has grown from the convenient D200 leaflet to the D300's tome. I've got some reading to do... right after I finish the National Dream (again).
Mike,

I wouldn't hearing about how it goes when you finally make it out.
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Old 12-18-2008, 05:22 PM   #50
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Mike,

I wouldn't hearing about how it goes when you finally make it out.
My new toy just shot it's first train... albeit on a cloudy day. Nothing to write home about, though seems I can do some editing of the raw in camera. I've accidentally found function that allows me to brighten or darken the image. Not very useful if you already have PS.

Image quality looks pretty good on that big LCD screen. We'll see how they look on the PC tonight. One thing that I didn't realize (since it's not a feature I'm interested in) is that the D300 has live view. One big PITA is that with the MB-D10 battery/grip installed, you can't access the battery in the body without removing the MB-D10. Weak. On my D200 when the MB-D200 is installed, both batteries are held within it. With a D300, one battery is in the body, one is in the MB. I find this to be a big step backwards.
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