Old 03-02-2012, 12:28 AM   #51
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Oh, you won't have to look far to know where these things are at any given moment, at least for the first year or two. As a friend put it, "Todd is going to have to add another server to keep the Trainorders Eastern board running with all the reports on these things."

I used the initial post on Trainorders like a futures market to gauge just how much foam these things will generate. I believe the post will go down in Trainorders history as one of, if not THE, most active posts ever. Last time I checked it was over 100 replies and 13,000 views. The first few trains with these things leading are going to be like steam chases.
And what about those of us that don't want to pay the money to be on the drama/idiot filled TO?
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:20 AM   #52
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And what about those of us that don't want to pay the money to be on the drama/idiot filled TO?
YahooGroups, Facebook posts, tweets..... maybe even phone calls.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:24 AM   #53
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Only using that as an example of the foam these things are generating. You're preaching to the choir on the current state of Trainorders. That's why I'm letting my membership expire this month.

There's any number of forums and groups that I'm sure will be on these things like white on rice. If you honestly need a suggestion on a heads up group for a certain region, just ask. I'm sure someone can provide you with a recommendation.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:08 AM   #54
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I'd be willing to bet a group will show up on Facebook, as it did for the Amtrak heritage units.

Jon
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:04 AM   #55
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A bit disappointed the TAG unit was dropped, I guess its cause Southern and NS destroyed the whole TAG line. Glad PC was dropped though, they did not deserve a heritage unit.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:43 PM   #56
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Glad PC was dropped though, they did not deserve a heritage unit.
Boo!

Without PC, everything falls apart before CR gets there. Life isn't always pretty, neither are paint schemes for money=starved railroads sometimes.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:52 PM   #57
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Boo!

Without PC, everything falls apart before CR gets there. Life isn't always pretty, neither are paint schemes for money=starved railroads sometimes.
Yeah, but NS already does black units with white lettering!

Besides, you could argue that without PC, things never would have gotten to the point that Conrail was needed. The NYC and PRR should never have been merged - too much route duplication, too little rational consolidation. The argument that prevented the SP-SF merger should have prevented the PRR-NYC merger. A PRR-N&W merger and an NYC-C&O/B&O merger would have made much more sense, as history has borne out, and as some suggested at the time.

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Old 03-02-2012, 02:35 PM   #58
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I was just giving you some crap. I'm a member of a few groups that should all be able to keep track of the units on an almost daily basis.

Can't wait for the first few to come out!
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Old 03-02-2012, 05:19 PM   #59
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Yeah, but NS already does black units with white lettering!

Besides, you could argue that without PC, things never would have gotten to the point that Conrail was needed. The NYC and PRR should never have been merged - too much route duplication, too little rational consolidation. The argument that prevented the SP-SF merger should have prevented the PRR-NYC merger. A PRR-N&W merger and an NYC-C&O/B&O merger would have made much more sense, as history has borne out, and as some suggested at the time.

Jon
You would think that as a PC fan I would spend more time shooting NS, but no, I spend essentially zero. AAMOF I think I have zero NS black on the database.

I understand what you are saying, but I find it irrelevant. Regardless of how the world should have turned out, it turned out that they ended up creating an entity to carry things along until they figured out what to do. That entity was PC, it existed, like it or not, and frankly it had waaay more impact than, say, Interstate.

One very crude measure, but I wonder, if one could possibly estimate aggretate ton-miles for each entity (aggregated over time so a smaller RR with long history might exceed in total the PC with 8 years), how things would sort out?
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:02 PM   #60
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You would think that as a PC fan I would spend more time shooting NS, but no, I spend essentially zero. AAMOF I think I have zero NS black on the database.
......
One very crude measure, but I wonder, if one could possibly estimate aggretate ton-miles for each entity (aggregated over time so a smaller RR with long history might exceed in total the PC with 8 years), how things would sort out?
Is the lack of NS shooting more related to lack of interest, or to location? I'm not particularly fond of CSX, but I shoot it alot because I have very limited time to railfan, and it literally runs through my backyard.

As far as aggregate ton-miles, I suspect there's probably a way to figure that out - maybe I'll spend some free time later doing it. But a quick search brings up a Wikipedia article that points out that in the 1920s, the Pennsy was averaging 3 times as many ton-miles yearly as the UP or ATSF, and that the NYC was the only close competitor, with about 3/4s the ton-mileage of the Pennsy. I'm guessing I know which predecessor line would come out at the top of the list!

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Old 03-02-2012, 07:25 PM   #61
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Jon, it's both. In photography I love color most of all (not that the preference is apparent in my actual results, but that is what attracts me most) and I've never really gotten excited about shooting NS power. But also, my family life is such that I choose to go on shorter outings and, more often, to link an hour or two trackside with errands. CSX is within my extended shopping zone, so to speak, whereas NS is not.

So NS is further, and as it doesn't match my photographic tastes, it hasn't been generally worthy of the extra effort to get there. I'd rather spend any extended available time at the small yard at Hancock WV on CSX then go do NS.

BTW, with respect to the color, YN3=DF is a big step back compared to YN2.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:19 PM   #62
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BTW, with respect to the color, YN3=DF is a big step back compared to YN2.
AMEN. I like NS, and if I'm gonna shoot a dark scheme, it may as well be one that looks good.

CSX could have hit a home run with a true C&O style blue and bright yellow, but no, we have a "gold" that fades to different shades on different units(anyone shoot a SD70MAC lately?) and doesn't really "pop." That's merely my personal opinion.

But I like to shoot both roads, shooting too much of the same thing can get old.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:26 PM   #63
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CSX could have hit a home run with a true C&O style blue and bright yellow, but no, we have a "gold" that fades to different shades on different units(anyone shoot a SD70MAC lately?) and doesn't really "pop." That's merely my personal opinion.
Speaking of the 70MACs, this recent ToL24 shows what the problem is all about:

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Old 03-02-2012, 11:52 PM   #64
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PC may have been significant, but very few people can think Penn Central and conjure up anything good. It would be in my mind plain bad taste to do a Penn Central unit. Sure IAIS did a RI unit, a railroad that failed as miserably in the end, but it had a proud history before its bankrupcy and demise. PC's short life was nothing but failure the whole time, nothing good to be remembered by except for the select few railfans that actually liked PC.
I for one think it was a good decision, bringing back memories from the worst days of railroading is not what a Class 1 railroad wants to do.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:30 AM   #65
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Pretty funny that they delete my post about the subject over at jreb.org. You apparently cannot voice a negative opinion of anything NS does over there. The Savannah and Atlanta unit is ridiculous. It's just the Southern "merger" era scheme where they painted all the acquired roads units in Southerns paint scheme. The S&A was abandoned over a big chunk of their mainline and what is left is not really huge in the NS system. I cant see why they are being given a unit at all, let alone why THAT color scheme and not their red color scheme.

The rest of them look good, although I wish they did the N&W's tuscan red scheme of the early passenger GP's rather than the "hamburger" scheme with Wabash Blue of the late 60's. Also glad PC and NH got dropped...
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:16 AM   #66
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Pretty funny that they delete my post about the subject over at jreb.org. You apparently cannot voice a negative opinion of anything NS does over there.
First time I've ever heard of that site. What does "JREB" stand for?
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Old 03-03-2012, 02:35 AM   #67
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First time I've ever heard of that site. What does "JREB" stand for?
I dont know, "Johnny Rebel" or something I guess. It's an NS Centric site. Pretty good for info, several of the people who run it and post there are actually NS employees.
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:04 AM   #68
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I wish they did the N&W's tuscan red scheme of the early passenger GP's
I rather suspect that they didn't do the N&W Tuscan because of the similarity to the PRR Tuscan. In fact, it's kind of ironic to consider that at one point the Pennsy owned a controlling interest in the N&W . . .

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Old 03-03-2012, 03:11 AM   #69
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I think an Interstate RR scheme would look pretty slick on one of the big AC units.
As you guys know by now, that oversight was corrected (thank you very much... ).
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:13 AM   #70
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Pretty funny that they delete my post about the subject over at jreb.org. You apparently cannot voice a negative opinion of anything NS does over there. The Savannah and Atlanta unit is ridiculous. It's just the Southern "merger" era scheme where they painted all the acquired roads units in Southerns paint scheme. The S&A was abandoned over a big chunk of their mainline and what is left is not really huge in the NS system. I cant see why they are being given a unit at all, let alone why THAT color scheme and not their red color scheme.
There was a reason for that selection. The S&A was certainly significant enough to warrant a "heritage" unit, and there were many who wanted to see at least one in the "tuxedo" paint scheme used by Southern from 1959 until 1982. I wouldn't call it "ridiculous."
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:43 AM   #71
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Pretty funny that they delete my post about the subject over at jreb.org. You apparently cannot voice a negative opinion of anything NS does over there.

.....

The rest of them look good, although I wish they did the N&W's tuscan red scheme of the early passenger GP's rather than the "hamburger" scheme with Wabash Blue of the late 60's. Also glad PC and NH got dropped...
Its funny what you said about jreb, I love that forum as well, but when I suggested this whole heritage unit thing as the reason for the 4610's repaint, I was shot down, to the point some posts had to be removed. And when I tried to point that out, my reply was removed. Sometimes you can't be right either. But that is irrelevant now.

As for the N&W, I like the blue, but think the black hamburger or the first black scheme would have been nice. But I'm not a huge N&W fan, so it doesn't upset me that they went with the Wabash blue.

Ron, I for one appreciate the work you did on the interstate. I don't know much about the railroad, but I immediately recognize the paint scheme.

I also appreciate the work of those who got the NS unit in , and the IT unit. Truth be told, I'm far more excited for the NS, IT, and INT units than for the N&W, SOU, and especially CR-Blah! There was no surprise in those 3 being done, but my three favorites weren't even on that first preliminary list, so yesterday was great news to me.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:59 AM   #72
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Ron, I for one appreciate the work you did on the interstate. I don't know much about the railroad, but I immediately recognize the paint scheme.

I also appreciate the work of those who got the NS unit in , and the IT unit. Truth be told, I'm far more excited for the NS, IT, and INT units than for the N&W, SOU, and especially CR-Blah! There was no surprise in those 3 being done, but my three favorites weren't even on that first preliminary list, so yesterday was great news to me.
As I got somewhat involved in the Interstate unit, I could sense the initial list that was leaked was somewhat "fluid." For instance, there's very little ex-New Haven trackage being operated today by NS, so that one fell by the wayside. There wasn't any strong love for a PC unit either. Although the TAG had a fine paint scheme, most of the railroad is now gone (unlike the former Interstate, which still generates significant coal loadings for NS today).

You could go on and on, but I believe there was a lot of thought into developing a final pecking order. There's no way you can represent each and every predecessor company. Where do you stop: East, Tennessee, Virginia & Georgia, Atlantic & Danville, Chattanooga Traction?

What ultimately emerged was a solid representation of predecessor companies, and some very fine looking paint schemes (and, diverse in their look and colors). Consider that most onlookers will have no clue as to some of these names (except, perhaps, the "Wabash Cannonball"), but NS scores a p.r. coup.

As for CSX---well, they already missed their 30th anniversary (that would have been 2010). I don't think CSX management places the same premium on its corporate past as NS. Translation: Michael Ward isn't a "railfan"---Wick Moorman is. Wick (and many of his management inter circle) isn't a foamer, of course, but he has an extensive knowledge of, and respect for, the "classic" era of the railroad industry. Consider that CSX pulls its office car trains with ex-Amtrak F40s. Interesting power, for sure---but not in the league of the NS A-B-B-A set in SR-inspired paint. Also, CSX is downright hostile when it comes to steam locomotives. You think they would ever consider pulling Atlantic Coast Line Pacific 1504 off its perch in front of the CSX office building in Jacksonville and resteam it? Sure--when Ralph Nader is elected president, in a landslide.

Would NS ever consider bringing 611 back into service? I honestly don't see that happening, but it's not impossible (even less likely for 1218, which needed a lot of work).

In the meantime, as mere observers, we're going to have plenty of eye candy in the coming months. For an old geezer who recalls most of these schemes when they were being worn by the diesels of those predecessor companies, it's like going to a big reunion concert for some of my favorite '60s rock bands.
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:03 PM   #73
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I dont know, "Johnny Rebel" or something I guess. It's an NS Centric site. Pretty good for info, several of the people who run it and post there are actually NS employees.
Is it a rat-infested site?
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:07 PM   #74
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Would NS ever consider bringing 611 back into service?
Themselves, no. But there are alot of folks who claim to have heard whispers from inside NS that if someone else wants to pay to restore the 611, they'd be more than happy to provide a place to operate her.

Jon
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:24 PM   #75
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Themselves, no. But there are alot of folks who claim to have heard whispers from inside NS that if someone else wants to pay to restore the 611, they'd be more than happy to provide a place to operate her.

Jon
That's a creditable whisper. If you consider NS is already supporting a "21st Century Steam" program, it stands to reason a restored 611 would be warmly (no pun intended) welcomed. She was essentially stored serviceable, but the engine would require a 15-year FRA rebuild, which would include removal (and/or replacement) of flues, superheaters, ultrasound of the boiler, etc. That's going to cost a lot of money, and NS (though quite generous) wouldn't likely pony up those kinds of funds.
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