Old 11-25-2007, 11:37 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
Right. I wanted to see the "fixed" one, not the rejected one that is in the first post.
Here, Jim. The first attached one is the originally rejected image, and the second is when it turned into a panning shot. I know RAW allows you to do a alot of stuff after-the-fact, but I didn't know you could change shutter speed and turn a shot into a panning one...
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:40 PM   #27
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Technically don't we all do something, maybe not like this, but of similar guide lines? Sharpening, Brightening, PSP's 1 step photo fix, they are all digitally manipulating the picture. I know lots of people do these things to their photo's, so why should I get blamed for trying to make a picture look good?
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Old 11-25-2007, 11:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
Technically don't we all do something, maybe not like this, but of similar guide lines? Sharpening, Brightening, PSP's 1 step photo fix, they are all digitally manipulating the picture. I know lots of people do these things to their photo's, so why should I get blamed for trying to make a picture look good?
Because the Submission Guidelines say:
Quote:
Manipulation:

The purpose of our website is to display genuine, authentic photographs of trains and railroad related scenes. Bearing this in mind, digital manipulation of photographs (beyond standard post-processing techniques such as levelling, sharpening, dust removal, etc.) is not permitted on photographs submitted to RailPictures.Net.
http://www.railpictures.net/addphotos/guidelines.php

I think this is the second time I've referred you to this page. Don't try to compare what you did to normal post processing techniques...
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:42 AM   #29
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Ok, that shut me up on that part, but all the screener had to do is reject it and pretty much none of this would have happened. So lay off. Don't stand up for them too. Not trying to put anyone down, but I think the people on the forum pay a little to much attention to small, pretty much useless problems.
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Old 11-26-2007, 12:43 AM   #30
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Translation: "Its not my fault that I got away with something because I broke the rules!"

I think the problem here isn't that the screener didn't reject it, but its the fact that you blatantly photoshopped something in a deceitful way and lied about it, and got away with it. Yes, the screeners should have rejected it, but its not their job to browse the forums and make sure that every picture submitted wasn't photoshopped, there's a certain level of trust after 57+ images accepted. But, the fact is, you broke the rules, and got caught, and now you're shifting the blame.

I think we can all agree, theres a difference between
Lightening the photo, sharpening it and doing some color work
and
Completely changing the character of the image, adding effects that were not in the original file, and otherwise altering the image significantly.

Last edited by Cyclonetrain; 11-26-2007 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:37 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclonetrain
Translation: "Its not my fault that I got away with something because I broke the rules!"

I think the problem here isn't that the screener didn't reject it, but its the fact that you blatantly photoshopped something in a deceitful way and lied about it, and got away with it. Yes, the screeners should have rejected it, but its not their job to browse the forums and make sure that every picture submitted wasn't photoshopped, there's a certain level of trust after 57+ images accepted. But, the fact is, you broke the rules, and got caught, and now you're shifting the blame.

I think we can all agree, theres a difference between
Lightening the photo, sharpening it and doing some color work
and
Completely changing the character of the image, adding effects that were not in the original file, and otherwise altering the image significantly.
I also think it is not your job. You are not an administrator, or moderator to both the forums and the main site. Yes, I got away with something. Who cares? I understand that the rules are important here, but one innocent shouldn't bring down the house, and not in the good way.
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:53 AM   #32
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The image has been removed, and Chris has said in a prior post that the poster will be contacted about the issue. Hopefully this will be enough to keep it from happening again. If not, I guess stronger action needs to be taken, but I'd like to think we are all adults here and would hope that a moderator contacting you would be enough.
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:55 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
I also think it is not your job. You are not an administrator, or moderator to both the forums and the main site.
These forums are a community of sorts. We discuss matters that we have in common. We are not police, and for that matter we are only a small part of the larger RP community, most of which does not participate in this forum. We have no power. We are individuals.

I will say at this point that I speak only for myself, but I believe I express the view of many (they can and certainly will correct me!).

Nonetheless, we can and will discuss what we see on this site. One thing we share in common, I think, or perhaps I will say, I observe, is that lots of us want high standards placed on image acceptance on RP. (Of course, the image at hand is not a matter of a high or discriminating, in the good sense of that word, standard but rather a low, basic standard.)

Quote:
Yes, I got away with something. Who cares? I understand that the rules are important here
Many of us care that an undeserving image not be accepted here. It's an important part of why we like this site. Warts and all.
Quote:
but one innocent shouldn't bring down the house, and not in the good way.
I have absolutely no idea what this phrase is supposed to mean.
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:17 AM   #34
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that last statement was a typo on my part. Sorry. I meant to say, one picture shouldn't start a whole controversy. That is what it means or is supposed to mean.
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
that last statement was a typo on my part. Sorry. I meant to say, one picture shouldn't start a whole controversy. That is what it means or is supposed to mean.
Oh, OK. Well, the one picture did not start a controversy beyond itself. So, done!
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:32 AM   #36
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Chicago railfan,

Don't let these people jump down your throat. Their definition of "digital manipulation" is pretty much a joke, drawing an arbitrary line with no real explanation as to why making something blurry is wrong, but sharpening is fine. Truth is, the site does a pretty terrible job of defining the issue at hand. I don't think such manipulated photos should be regarded as photography so much, but rather art. What you did could very well have been done in a dark room with a film negative.

Also, from what i've seen, most of your problems are coming from too much post-processing to make up for defects in your image quality. To start taking shots that will be accepted here, sadly you may need a new camera. Don't let rp.net discourage you, or put ideas into your head about what kind of rail photography is acceptable or not. "The best railroad photos on the net" according to who? 4 screeners. Yes learn the technical aspects of good photography (light, composition, etc.) but don't let a handful of people tell you how to shoot.
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:40 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
Ok, that shut me up on that part, but all the screener had to do is reject it and pretty much none of this would have happened. So lay off. Don't stand up for them too. Not trying to put anyone down, but I think the people on the forum pay a little to much attention to small, pretty much useless problems.
And all you had to do was not upload a blatantly manipulated image in the first place. We shouldn't have to closely inspect every uploaded image for signs of manipulation. We count on our contributors to adhere to our guidelines regarding that, and when we notice a pattern on the part of a particular user trying to "trick us" or "sneak things by us," we react harshly.

You got a warning last time you admitted to intentionally trying to sneak similar photos in. This time, you got a one month ban, and to be perfectly honest, given the attitude you've displayed in the past, you're lucky I don't yank all of your accepted photos and tell you to find another site to contribute to. The only reason I haven't done that is because I know that you're a young, enthusiastic railfan, and I'm holding out hope that this little vacation will give you time to grow up and change the way you've chosen to operate up to this point.
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Old 11-26-2007, 02:52 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WKUrailfan
Don't let these people jump down your throat. Their definition of "digital manipulation" is pretty much a joke, drawing an arbitrary line with no real explanation as to why making something blurry is wrong, but sharpening is fine. Truth is, the site does a pretty terrible job of defining the issue at hand. I don't think such manipulated photos should be regarded as photography so much, but rather art. What you did could very well have been done in a dark room with a film negative.
Come on, surely even you can see the difference between sharpening a digital image out of the camera, and selectively blurring the background of a photo to create a pan shot effect. You could superimpose Santa and his reindeer flying through the sky behind the train in a dark room, too, but that doesn't make it any more representative of reality than what he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WKUrailfan
Also, from what i've seen, most of your problems are coming from too much post-processing to make up for defects in your image quality. To start taking shots that will be accepted here, sadly you may need a new camera. Don't let rp.net discourage you, or put ideas into your head about what kind of rail photography is acceptable or not. "The best railroad photos on the net" according to who? 4 screeners. Yes learn the technical aspects of good photography (light, composition, etc.) but don't let a handful of people tell you how to shoot.
Yawn.

Can't you come up with something more original than saying we're trying to define what constitutes acceptable rail photography and what doesn't?

The fact of the matter is, as a publication, we have set standards as to what type of material we wish to publish. You should know better than most that it's no different in the print world, in fact, it's much more stringent. When you send images to Trains, Railfan & Railroad, or whatever else, and they don't publish every one of them, do you get as wound up because they're trying to "put ideas into your head?"

The 60,000+ folks who visit this site on a daily basis seem to like the direction we're going, and that's good enough for me.
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Old 11-26-2007, 03:21 AM   #39
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One thing on top of those points, WKU - This guy is a person who consistantly (an unimaginatively) shoots the same angle over and over, and by his own admission attempts to sneak as many similar photos into the database as possible. Railpictures to him is a game for seeing how many of his boring and thoroughly unimaginative shots he can slide through under the fence. He has no respect for this website, and refuses to change. You shouldn't be defending him, and frankly, I don't think he should be given another chance in the near future due to his unwillingness to even accept that he's done anything wrong, despite how many times he's been caught red-handed.
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Old 11-26-2007, 05:39 AM   #40
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Quote:
I meant to say, one picture shouldn't start a whole controversy.
It didn't, Andrew/FLODO/Chicago Railfan/whatever-you're-going-by-today...this whole thing was started by your actions, both in the past with the similar shot thread and now with this issue. You have demonstrated that you are:

a) Incapable of following the upload guidlines
b) Can't comprehend what the guidelines say
c) Just don't care about the rules because you think they don't matter

Either way, it's a little disappointing to see you shift the blame to the screeners. I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt that you were honestly confused about the rules before submitting shots here, but even ignorance of the rules isn't an excuse to violate them.

But the fact that you would try to compare sharpening and leveling a shot to completely falsifying the background as being the same and then trying to pass it off as a panning shot (as you did in the remarks), then try to blame the screeners, saying it was their fault because they didn't reject your fake shot, and then at the end, after the admin has weighed in, still refuse to take any ounce of responsibility for any part of this "controversy" is laughable.

And your reasoning and logic doesn't make sense. You wrote:
Quote:
Not trying to put anyone down, but I think the people on the forum pay a little to much attention to small, pretty much useless problems.
Well, wait. Weren't YOU the one that started this thread, seeking the advice of the people in the forum? But, wait, now that it's not in your favor, those people pay attention to the "small, pretty much useless problems"?

Which brings me to this, regarding the second, CSXT 112 shot:
Quote:
appealed with CSX picture saying that that is what the engine looks like.
Why should anyone believe you? You've demonstrated dishonesty in the past, and this thread isn't helping you any, so is that really what that unit looks like? It doesn't really matter to be honest. The point is, your credibility is shot. You've dug your own hole and dug it a little deeper by being dishonest and not taking any sort of responsibility.

A one month ban is light, IMO, but it's not my call. Santiago Homsi got banned for uploading fake shots of fake meets, which is a shame because he didn't have to...his shots were fine as is. But he chose to fake them to "make a picture look good." Sound familiar?
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:42 AM   #41
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Chicago Railfan, I think the bigger issue here is that you refuse to admit fault. We might be able to move on with this issue, but your continued defense of your actions only hampers your cause more. If you had acknowledged fault in the first place, it would have:
a) Made this less of an issue than it has become.
b) Damaged your reputation here less than it already has.

And, what makes this worse, is that isn't the first time this has happened to you. This means you've been made aware that digital manipulation is an issue here at RP.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:14 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
one picture shouldn't start a whole controversy. That is what it means or is supposed to mean.
Well, it didn't. It's still those multiple shots of the same train in the same location that you uploaded, too. And your attitude in those threads and others.

I'd like to know how old you are. You act like a 14 year old spoiled brat who thinks he is entitled to get away with things. You get caught in lies repeatedly, yet you still come in here and try to pull one over on us. You never apologize or admit your guilt. You just make another excuse and then make another lie.

I've said elsewhere that you're a decent photographer and you're getting better. But as a person, you need work.


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Old 11-26-2007, 11:31 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog
Well, it didn't. It's still those multiple shots of the same train in the same location that you uploaded, too. And your attitude in those threads and others.

I'd like to know how old you are. You act like a 14 year old spoiled brat who thinks he is entitled to get away with things. You get caught in lies repeatedly, yet you still come in here and try to pull one over on us. You never apologize or admit your guilt. You just make another excuse and then make another lie.

I've said elsewhere that you're a decent photographer and you're getting better. But as a person, you need work.


Joe
I think we would make for good friends.

I am 15, new to this, so shut up. You don't know me and I don't know you. How dare you make an accusation about a person when you know absolutely nothing about that person. As a person, you don't know me as a person. You know me as some random guy on a website and on the website's forums. Want to re think that statement?

Plus, it sounds stupid, but forums are known to bring out the worst in people. You could be a nice guy/girl, and be a total a$$ on the internet. Ask a forum master. Now watch, I am going to get ridiculed for trying to back myself up.
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Old 11-26-2007, 11:43 AM   #44
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CR;

I'm not going to get into a shouting match with a 15 year old. I will point out that yu are doing exactly what I said you do. You're making exscuses for your behavior, but you're not admitting to being wrong. You got caught in another lie with the digital manip, so now you're attacking everyone on this board.

You need to chill out and think about things. At 15, you show signs of becoming a really good photographer. Being that age -- if you're not lying about that, you could be a 60 year old woman for all we know -- it's understandable you shoot many of the same locations. I don't think folks should be grinding you down for that. But when you upload the same train from the same location, just different focal lengths, it shows a lack of understanding on view counts and what constitutes good photography. With view counts, multiple shots dillute the number of times people will see your picture. One shot alone might get 500 views. Two shots will also get 500 views, just divided among both of them.

You say you just happened to get that panning image in PS, insinuating you might not have tried for the panning effect or maybe didn't even know what you were doing. This is a lie and everyone here knows it. There's nothing wrong with manipulating a photograph. But sublitting that photograph here is clearly against the rules the owners of the site have set up.

Think of it this way. This site is about railroad photography, not railroad art, which is essentially what manipulated photos are.

Consider yourself lucky. Chris Kilroy said you were being given a second chance because of your age. So far, I don't think you're using that second chance wisely.


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Old 11-26-2007, 11:52 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Railfan
I think we would make for good friends.

I am 15, new to this, so shut up. You don't know me and I don't know you. How dare you make an accusation about a person when you know absolutely nothing about that person. .
No accusation needed, I think you make it pretty clear!
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Old 11-26-2007, 01:08 PM   #46
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Another point that needs to be singled out in this thread: Sharpening can not and should not be compared to blurring an image to make it look like a panning shot.

Sharpening an image is a step to bring it closer to reality. I see a train, and it looks sharp. My camera and lens, on the other hand, don't see that train as sharp as my eyes do. In order to correct that, we can sharpen an image to make it look as close to reality as possible. Hence, sharpening should NOT be included in ANY kind of digital manipulation comparison, such as creating a panning shot with post processing blurring.
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Old 11-26-2007, 03:48 PM   #47
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Quote:
You don't know me and I don't know you. How dare you make an accusation about a person when you know absolutely nothing about that person. As a person, you don't know me as a person.
This seems to be the mantra of those who are caught being untruthful...I've had it written to me almost word-for-word in the recent past with an untruthful individual. You don't know me so how dare you? It doesn't matter if we know you in person or not...your actions and attitude that you display are your biography, even if it's not really "you". Because guess what? If you behavior online is not how you are as an actual person, then you're still lying about who you really are because you've created a fake persona. Whichever it is, you own the responsibility for your actions.

Quote:
Now watch, I am going to get ridiculed for trying to back myself up.
You know how you wouldn't get any push back? If you would do something along the lines of, "Hey, guys, I messed up. I understand that digitial manipulation is not accepted here even though I think it makes my images look better, but I realize I have to follow the guidelines like everyone else. I apologize for the misunderstanding, and I have learned from my mistakes. It won't happen again."

But you didn't. You want to play the victim and the blame game rather than own up to your actions, and now you're saying we don't understand because we don't know you. True, I don't know you in person, but I do know that hole you're standing in just got a little deeper...
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:47 PM   #48
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Well this is startin to get pretty good!
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Old 11-26-2007, 06:55 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFan14
Well this is startin to get pretty good!
Maybe, but probably it should end also. Done to death.
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Old 11-26-2007, 07:13 PM   #50
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If it was someone who would take the feedback given here and learn from it, I would say this would be useful conversation. However, it has now become a group of adults going back and forth with a child who has no interest in learning how things are done correctly. At this point it looks like any time wasted here is pointless.
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