Old 04-12-2016, 02:36 PM   #26
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Kevin, John, good points. First, I will say, to be clear, that to me "real" does not mean "unedited NEF converted to raw". The human eye is not equivalent to the camera eye and so as soon as one touches the file, one gets into the subjective realm; there is no objective measure of what the scene looked like. A natural extension of that thought is that one can process/manipulate a shot, even a good bit, without going into the "juiced" realm. "Juiced" to me indicates a step away from realism.

Kevin, I agree with John that you have adopted a "style of imagery." That does not mean "dream train" but it does mean adjustments that enhance the image. In this case I take your point about color/saturation and, as I said before, I have not seen this scene or equipment myself. But that still leaves brightness in particular, and having now seen your original - and thanks for that - I do say you enhanced it. Your processed scene is not what, at least, my eye would have seen in an outdoor shot in that atmospheric situation. Is that "juiced"? No! But it is different, and your eye is not just documentary, it is doing an interpretation, one I do not object to.

In the interests of clear discussion, I perhaps went off too much on "like my eye saw it," but I do not change my mind; your images are "like my mind saw it" which to me is not the same thing and is worthy of discussion. In fact, I'd say the distinction is a key part of becoming more advanced in photography, and one where you are well ahead of me. In making that point I do not intend to piss you off as I think you are in a great place with your work.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:55 PM   #27
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In the interests of clear discussion, I perhaps went off too much on "like my eye saw it," but I do not change my mind; your images are "like my mind saw it" which to me is not the same thing and is worthy of discussion. In fact, I'd say the distinction is a key part of becoming more advanced in photography, and one where you are well ahead of me. In making that point I do not intend to piss you off as I think you are in a great place with your work.
Hi J,

Apologies if my last post sounded defensive. My frustration was mostly with my inability to clearly express that the look of that image was far more a function of the fact that I don't know what the hell I am doing, than of any intent to put forward some kind of unique "style". It looks like it looks because that's the only way I know how to make it look acceptable for public viewing. If one of the "masters" here on RP would like to share with me the secrets of how to make it look more "real", I would gladly be a very attentive student! But I know that will never happen....

I do wish I could share with you what the JPEG and histogram looked like on my camera when I took that shot. It doesn't look nearly as dark as the attachment I posted. As noted previously, Lightroom has a ways to go before they get Nikon's Picture Controls figured out. Their sunny-day renditions have come a long way, but their cloudy-day translations leave a lot to be desired. I stick with Lightroom only because the human interface is really very intuitive. Although Nikon has the human interface figured out well on their cameras, their IT people are still way behind the power curve.
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:06 PM   #28
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Those who process heavily may not be doing themselves any favors:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt-k...n/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/matt-k...n/photostream/
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:23 PM   #29
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My frustration was mostly with my inability to clearly express that the look of that image was far more a function of the fact that I don't know what the hell I am doing, than of any intent to put forward some kind of unique "style".
Kevin, if you can do that well by not knowing what you are doing, think what you can accomplish when you finally figure it all out.

I have decided your style, unintentional as it might be (I don't really buy that), should be called Kodachrome on Steroids. I can recall a debate among photogs some fifty years ago that Kodachrome produced unrealistically saturated colors. The critics of Kodachrome preferred films like Anscochrome that produced more muted, and in their eyes more "realistic" colors.

Seems to me a lot of folks like your style.
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:30 PM   #30
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A super-quick edit of the RAW file using nothing but IrfanView:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	WWF_2016 03 25_0165-1.jpg
Views:	143
Size:	297.3 KB
ID:	9143  
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:25 PM   #31
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I can recall a debate among photogs some fifty years ago that Kodachrome produced unrealistically saturated colors. The critics of Kodachrome preferred films like Anscochrome that produced more muted, and in their eyes more "realistic" colors.
Oh, the regrets!

Modern Photography was much too kind to Kodachrome's challengers in their comparison tests IMO. But Kodachrome-X was so unsatisfactory that I strayed into the wilderness of Anscochrome (awful) and Ektachrome (passable).
The introduction of Kodachrome 64 got me back onto the path of righteousness.
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Old 04-12-2016, 05:36 PM   #32
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Oh, the regrets!

Modern Photography was much too kind to Kodachrome's challengers in their comparison tests IMO. But Kodachrome-X was so unsatisfactory that I strayed into the wilderness of Anscochrome (awful) and Ektachrome (passable).
The introduction of Kodachrome 64 got me back onto the path of righteousness.
We must have had similar experiences. But one of the glories of Photoshop is its ability to occasionally bring an old Anscochrome slide back to life, but the color shifted Ektachromes are really difficult.
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:07 PM   #33
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So in that same respect, would you also tell everyone to STFU if they posted observations made should a NASCAR event find the winner had been allowed to participate using equipment barred by others - because it's NASCAR's event and not your event? If at the last minute, the winning contestant on "American Idol" was the prettiest girl vs the best singer because it's their event and they can do what ever they want? Maybe a news paper falsely reports the news but that's OK because you don't run that paper, they do?

In the long run - perhaps you are right. The patrons will decide based on what they see as to whether the site is popular or fades. I spoke with quite a few members at last week's Center for Railroad Photography & Art conference who, unlike you and Joe, did just as you and Joe recommend -they STFU, and then left. Personally, I see enough positives to remain a patron and to that extent, like Rich, I'd like to see improvements to this site which in turn might encourage a greater number photographers, especially those well revered - old and new to patronize the site rather then simply being told to STFU.

/Mitch
Mitch, well put! I will add that when I venture to start a thread I do give it thought and my final hope is that somehow it can be used as a learning tool for ALL involved including the ones just lurking and maybe even for the screeners fine tuning the acceptance process. Having to use certain photogs shots is part of showing exactly what is in question and unfortunately there is no easy way around stepping on some toes when posting on a public forum but I think the quality of good dialogue that has come of this particular thread has been worth pursuing.

Kevin noted "the standards for acceptance have morphed quite a bit over the years....in both directions." and it's welcoming the site has not stayed stagnant. When some drastic new avenues are opened it just raises some questions and hence bringing it to the forum to air out.

Now, it is interesting to note that Greg replied to Jim's question with...."The photo is processed more than I wanted to but was done to meet guidelines. As commented above, it does actually look like a painting" and I'm sure many of us have altered some shots to meet guidelines before and the end result may or may not be what the photog was trying to convey.

That brings to mind a comment from Troy Nolen to one of my other post in which he replied "Screeners do weird things, we can't explain it." So, as we all try to comply we have to realize there could be some head scratching from time to time and and I thank all for some good teaching advice in your responses and sharing your thoughts and techniques!

Keep shooting, Rich
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Old 04-15-2016, 05:11 AM   #34
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But I stand by my original statement. I wasn't trying to make this image look like some dream train. I was indeed trying to make it look as real as I could.
Kevin, why didn't you just "get it right in the camera"? Then you wouldn't have had to process it so much.
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Old 04-15-2016, 09:03 AM   #35
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Kevin, why didn't you just "get it right in the camera"? Then you wouldn't have had to process it so much.

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Old 04-15-2016, 12:40 PM   #36
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Perhaps moving back to photos I saw this one:

Image © yoli79bg
PhotoID: 573012
Photograph © yoli79bg


If we are talking about types of photos maybe on the edge that can be accepted I prefer this type but I realize others may like surreal transformations of New York . Sorry the view count was so low.
There is a lot I like, not the least of which is after I read the photo description I saw the mfg was in Vienna from where I read the history of the mfg and then followed up about steam in Bulgaria and then Bulgaria history.
For me this is a positive part of the site and maybe it is things we should bring up rather than always complaining.

However, going back a little I did find the concept interesting that we favor wider acceptance of types of photos but curtail critiques of photos??

Bob
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Old 04-16-2016, 04:20 AM   #37
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Perhaps moving back to photos I saw this one:

Image © yoli79bg
PhotoID: 573012
Photograph © yoli79bg


Damn, that thing needs contrast. The entire image has a washed out look to it.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:20 AM   #38
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Damn, that thing needs contrast. The entire image has a washed out look to it.
Apparently not too terrible, since...
1. It made it on the site
2. It made it to my desktop background.
To me it looks quite contrasted already.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:25 AM   #39
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Apparently not too terrible, since...
1. It made it on the site
2. It made it to my desktop background.
To me it looks quite contrasted already.
It's definitely a beautiful photo, but I also can't help but feel like the blacks should have been pushed to actual black, rather than the the current level. One's monitor can have a large effect on how this looks though.
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Old 04-17-2016, 04:41 PM   #40
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Damn, that thing needs contrast. The entire image has a washed out look to it.
I hate sodium vapor lights... I would have adjusted hue to get rid of that ugly orange tint or made it black and white.

And I agree with the contrast statement

And, editorializing... European stem locomotives are SO fucking ugly...
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Old 04-17-2016, 05:11 PM   #41
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Apparently not too terrible, since...
1. It made it on the site
2. It made it to my desktop background.
Making it on the site as well your desktop background has nothing to do with the image needing a contrast boost.

Quote:
To me it looks quite contrasted already.
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