Old 05-04-2014, 06:13 PM   #76
John West
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Smile And Flickr too?

Sounds like Flickr is an interesting option. Primarily I post stuff to my own website because I like what I like, and on my own site I can organize stuff in a meaningful (at least to me) way. While RP has some serious "issues" it is still fun to occasionally post here. I do follow the hits, because one of the things I like about RP it it is occasionally fun to see how other people (including the screeners) react to my images. Clearly the ones I like the most are not always (perhaps seldom) the ones others like, so it is interesting and helpful to get feedback. My most popular picture on RP is definitely not one of my personal favorites. And while there are way too many diesel wedgies here, RP also has hosted some wonderful images that have inspired me to try to do better. The big problem here is simply the arbitrariness of the rejections. Now that trainorders.com allows larger images, that has become one of my favorite venues. But I expect to continue occasionally posting here, as well as at all the other places. Each has its pluses and minuses. I'm having a problem finding the good railroad images at Flickr, but that is probably just a matter of figuring out how to play the game.
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:58 AM   #77
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And so...I reopened my Flickr account (I recalled it was created in 2012, and I uploaded five digital shots...and then nothing). So far, I've just added some stuff I already had scanned on my computer (most of which is somewhere on RP.net). But---it's kind of new and interesting (for me at least), so here goes:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/91191585@N07/
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Old 05-05-2014, 04:04 AM   #78
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Looking forward to seeing what you post, followed!
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Old 05-05-2014, 06:05 AM   #79
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And so...I reopened my Flickr account (I recalled it was created in 2012, and I uploaded five digital shots...and then nothing).
It's not how good your images are - it's how well you campaign them. RP is great in that, unlike FLICKR, you are "subscribed" to every photo posted on RP. On FLICKR, you (and others) only see a handful of followed photographers unless you do a search and weed through hundreds of unrelated images and poorly conceived tags. Alternatively, you can self promote your shot (and FLICKR). "Good" images are more easily seen on RP and great images are often supplemented by RP's own front page "campaign" - so long as the quality of your image is better then the quantity of someone else's link campaign.

/Mitch
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:08 AM   #80
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I got an e-mail on Thursday from someone who saw my images on Flickr which seems to be leading really quick to a sale. As I think I said previously, for whatever reason, I seem to sell more on Flickr than anywhere else. It's where I put most of my stuff. My best railroad shots go here though as well as there. They had found the shots by doing a search for where I live. So my advice is if you are going to use Flickr, tag those photos well! Find groups and put them in there as well. I'm awful slack on geotagging them though, but that's a good idea too.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:26 AM   #81
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It's not how good your images are - it's how well you campaign them. RP is great in that, unlike FLICKR, you are "subscribed" to every photo posted on RP. On FLICKR, you (and others) only see a handful of followed photographers unless you do a search and weed through hundreds of unrelated images and poorly conceived tags. Alternatively, you can self promote your shot (and FLICKR). "Good" images are more easily seen on RP and great images are often supplemented by RP's own front page "campaign" - so long as the quality of your image is better then the quantity of someone else's link campaign.

/Mitch
My first choice to find any image is Google Image Search. That gives me RP, Flickr, RRPA and whatever else all in one place. I've noticed the search here is rather picky about what search terms will work.
Alternatively, I let someone else do the searching- good photographers' favorites streams. Links literally give me more to look at than I have time for.
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Old 05-05-2014, 02:01 PM   #82
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It's not how good your images are - it's how well you campaign them. RP is great in that, unlike FLICKR, you are "subscribed" to every photo posted on RP. On FLICKR, you (and others) only see a handful of followed photographers unless you do a search and weed through hundreds of unrelated images and poorly conceived tags. Alternatively, you can self promote your shot (and FLICKR). "Good" images are more easily seen on RP and great images are often supplemented by RP's own front page "campaign" - so long as the quality of your image is better then the quantity of someone else's link campaign.

/Mitch
And...that's exactly why I think I'm going to like Flickr. I have several photographers I would like to follow (and, many have indicated they'll be following my uploads). I don't care about the number of views, nor do I have any interest in self-promoting my shots.

So far, I'm quite impressed with the image quality of my shots on Flickr. And, I make the decisions on what to upload without fretting over whether this or that is level, or it's cropped to meet the particular likes of a screener or whatever. I'm in control---and for a change, I do like that. I think I'm competent enough (and certainly old enough) to make my own decisions.

I'll continue to upload some shots to RP.net, as I've said...but I also think I'll be shifting more of my hobby time to Flickr. One of my suggestions to the management of RP.net is to allow contributors with demonstrated ability to know a good shot from a bad one to upload directly, without being screened. But---they prefer the "one size fits all" approach. Consequently, I think you'll continue to see an exodus from RP.net of some of the more senior folks, who have neither the patience or time to deal with rejections for what they feel are frivolous reasons. It just sucks all the fun out of the hobby...and I do this for fun, and only fun, and I think many others feel the same way. However, I do strongly believe the screening process is essential for novice photographers, or folks who might need help to improve their skills. But, you have to know the difference if you're dealing with a Little League player or a Major Leaguer--or something in between.

The definition of insanity is to continue doing things the same way over and over, but expecting a different outcome.

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Old 05-05-2014, 02:24 PM   #83
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Even major leaguers suck more than 65% of the time Ron.

No photographer is beyond reproach IMO.

I hereby vouch that RP can continue to count on my 2 submissions a month..

I haven't embraced the idea of moving some of my material to flickr, because I'm not a fan of telemarketing my photography for views. Nothing like a photographer clogging my feed on facebook because they linked their flickr shot 19 different places.**

**No specific person implied, unless you took offense. It probably was you then.

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Old 05-05-2014, 03:31 PM   #84
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And...that's exactly why I think I'm going to like Flickr. I have several photographers I would like to follow (and, many have indicated they'll be following my uploads). I don't care about the number of views, nor do I have any interest in self-promoting my shots.

So far, I'm quite impressed with the image quality of my shots on Flickr. And, I make the decisions on what to upload without fretting over whether this or that is level, or it's cropped to meet the particular likes of a screener or whatever. I'm in control---and for a change, I do like that. I think I'm competent enough (and certainly old enough) to make my own decisions.

I'll continue to upload some shots to RP.net, as I've said...but I also think I'll be shifting more of my hobby time to Flickr. One of my suggestions to the management of RP.net is to allow contributors with demonstrated ability to know a good shot from a bad one to upload directly, without being screened. But---they prefer the "one size fits all" approach. Consequently, I think you'll continue to see an exodus from RP.net of some of the more senior folks, who have neither the patience or time to deal with rejections for what they feel are frivolous reasons. It just sucks all the fun out of the hobby...and I do this for fun, and only fun, and I think many others feel the same way. However, I do strongly believe the screening process is essential for novice photographers, or folks who might need help to improve their skills. But, you have to know the difference if you're dealing with a Little League player or a Major Leaguer--or something in between.

The definition of insanity is to continue doing things the same way over and over, but expecting a different outcome.
Ron, I have always enjoyed your work (followed you upon seeing that you re-established your FLICKR account) and look forward to seeing the products you put out there.

Your comments are pretty spot on. Seems there should be a point at which users of RP.net have a demonstrated body of work on the site that suggests that they "get it". A little bit of trust to this class of photographer would go a long ways to make the site seem a little less picky. After all, it isn't like the admins couldn't just go back through and remove (with an explanation) photos that they don't think meet the site's standards.

I can understand the screening of lesser known or "newbies" for each and every photo, but I struggle with why guys like you, Mitch, Loyd, Dennis, and hundreds of others are run through the wringer each time. Especially when it's damn obvious that you all are pretty discerning of your own work. Good photographers-like fighter pilots-are compelled to learn from their mistakes and apply what they learn.

Not my website, but ya know, a possible approach is to add a badge to the contributor's profile which denotes that person has reached the nadir of "self acceptance" because of their demonstrated selection of photos to contribute to the site. I've had conversations with Chris Kilroy before and he acknowledged that there are certain photographers that they simply don't ask questions about. They've obviously demonstrated that IF they're uploading it, then they already know it's within the RP.net construct.
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:35 PM   #85
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I haven't embraced the idea of moving some of my material to flickr, because I'm not a fan of telemarketing my photography for views. Nothing like a photographer clogging my feed on facebook because they linked their flickr shot 19 different places.
There is a fine line there, or perhaps a coarse, thick, wide line. Especially for those without substantial flickr audiences. Flickr is also a storage point for RP-unsuited shots. I don't know what the right amount of linking is, but it isn't zero either. (I happen to link modestly, even for the few shots I have, but I am not claiming any superiority, that is just what I choose to do.)

I am irritated that on FB Railroad Photography and The Railroad Photographers Guild and The Real Railroad Photography group have ended up as three separate groups because the overlap between them is substantial so it is a pain to slog through, given the repetition of images.

No site is perfect.
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:36 PM   #86
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I'll tell you what FLICKR also offers that RP.net does not, and maybe it's intentional, I don't know.

A MOBILE APP for your phone/tablet.

Because of FLICKR, when I'm trackside in an area where I have access to the internet, and I happen across someone who is familiar with my stuff, I can actually show them photos on my phone with only a few taps of the screen. In fact, I just did a count and I can-in less than 5 taps-have an image on the screen with no text or re-centering/re-sizing required to show to another person.

If I were to use RP.net, it would take me several minutes, and several page loads to get to one of my photos, and even then, it would not be optimized for the screen resolution of my phone. FLICKR does, and for that reason alone makes it a much better medium to share your photos.
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Old 05-05-2014, 03:52 PM   #87
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There is a fine line there, or perhaps a coarse, thick, wide line. Especially for those without substantial flickr audiences. Flickr is also a storage point for RP-unsuited shots. I don't know what the right amount of linking is, but it isn't zero either. (I happen to link modestly, even for the few shots I have, but I am not claiming any superiority, that is just what I choose to do.)

I am irritated that on FB Railroad Photography and The Railroad Photographers Guild and The Real Railroad Photography group have ended up as three separate groups because the overlap between them is substantial so it is a pain to slog through, given the repetition of images.
No site is perfect.
Yet another reason I dumped Facebook. Let's call a spade a spade and acknowledge that railfans are controlling ego-maniacs. If someone feels snubbed or otherwise offended by a group, their solution is to start an alliance and build a splinter group where they can feel accepted, if not completely in charge of the group. Then they spend the next several months "protecting" their herd from other groups by censoring posts about a new group that has been created elsewhere.

The 3 groups you mentioned just now all started in a similar manner. If you take the time, you'd be able to make the connection by looking at the most "senior" member and realize that at one time they were likely part of one or both of the others, or in many cases, they still are.

I also became irritated with the fact that there seems to be a group for every state, mainline, shortline, industrial siding and rip track from here to hell and back. How in the world anyone can possibly get any utility with all the cross-posting and rampant speculation is beyond me. There's just too much conflicting and outright wrong information to stay reasonably well informed. Add the drama on top of that, and ugh... my head hurts thinking about it.

I'm more perplexed that I put up with it for as long as I did, and I feel bad sometimes for all the people that I talked into joining up with Facebook over the past 5 or 6 years that I was involved.

That said, there were a handful of groups that I really enjoyed being affiliated with because you could get good heads-ups and knowledge. But I've managed to get by pretty well by establishing and building relationships with REAL people who are always more than willing to drop a text message or an e-mail about what's happening. Yeah, I miss lots of stuff, but I have faith that my friends will let me know what's going on if they deem it to be important enough.
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Old 05-05-2014, 04:07 PM   #88
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Yes, in fact I understand that "Real" Railroad Photography was set up because of issues some had with Railroad Photography - as the pinned message on "real" says: "This was created because the original group is going completely to hell." I have no idea to what extent that is true because I don't spend that much time on those pages.

I know that some people got irritated by something or another on my local group (Sean, you probably know the groups to which I refer) and split off their own, and now lots of people post to both, including some of the people pushing for the split. Or so it appears to me - I was not zoned in to the group during the time the split happened so I don't know the full story. So I have to look at both. Or not, which is mostly what I choose to do.

At any rate, my current FB photo viewing is mostly what appears on my home page, which is a seemingly random set of shots that "friends" of mine have submitted to one of the many groups to which I have attached.
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Old 05-05-2014, 04:16 PM   #89
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Yes, in fact I understand that "Real" Railroad Photography was set up because of issues some had with Railroad Photography - as the pinned message on "real" says: "This was created because the original group is going completely to hell." I have no idea to what extent that is true because I don't spend that much time on those pages.

I know that some people got irritated by something or another on my local group (Sean, you probably know the groups to which I refer) and split off their own, and now lots of people post to both, including some of the people pushing for the split. Or so it appears to me - I was not zoned in to the group during the time the split happened so I don't know the full story. So I have to look at both. Or not, which is mostly what I choose to do.

At any rate, my current FB photo viewing is mostly what appears on my home page, which is a seemingly random set of shots that "friends" of mine have submitted to one of the many groups to which I have attached.
In the last year, it seemed as though keeping tabs on your favorite photographers on Facebook had become more like a part time job than it was a hobby. Some guys post to this group, or that group, but not that one.

What made it even harder is if they only posted to a "closed" group then you had to be a member of that group in order to see it. If whoever ran that particular group didn't like you for any reason, forget it.

Again, FLICKR to the rescue. Now I just follow a photographer whose work I really enjoy and I can see their stuff whenever I want. FLICKR still allows you to send links to social media, so it enables you to share as you see fit. RP sorta does the same thing, but the flow that FLICKR uses is much easier to view as it shows all the new photos based on when they were uploaded.

RP just gives you a notice quite similar to Facebook that says "so and so" has added a new photo, and then you have to click on each individual notification to see the photo(s) rather than see them all at once.
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Old 05-05-2014, 04:52 PM   #90
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...I can understand the screening of lesser known or "newbies" for each and every photo, but I struggle with why guys like you, Mitch, Loyd, Dennis, and hundreds of others are run through the wringer each time. Especially when it's damn obvious that you all are pretty discerning of your own work. Good photographers-like fighter pilots-are compelled to learn from their mistakes and apply what they learn...

...I've had conversations with Chris Kilroy before and he acknowledged that there are certain photographers that they simply don't ask questions about. They've obviously demonstrated that IF they're uploading it, then they already know it's within the RP.net construct...
So, in an informal way, they're doing that now. I would argue it should be done in some official manner, as you (and I) suggested.

Here's the rub with RP.net (for me): Yes, I am discerning about what I upload. But, there's a practical limit as to how much time anyone should waste with Photoshop to clean up an old slide, correct colors, contrast, level, and on and on for an RP.net upload. To minimize the chance you'll get gigged on a shot (and get upset because of it), you end up going overboard. There's a point that should be "good enough" with any image. And mind you, that's short of perfection. After all, this is just an internet site, it's not as every single shot will be a candidate for the cover of Trains Magazine. If I have a shot to be considered for that, I'll make darn sure I make it as close to perfection as I can get it.

So, with Flickr, I can upload "good enough," and 99.99 percent of the viewers will not know that I didn't correct the level that pesky .2 degree CCW that would probably get you gigged here. Sure, I know it doesn't take long to do that, but I can simply eyeball a shot without pulling up a grid or ruler and checking this or that. But, it's not a prudent investment of my time to obsess over such an innocuous issue.
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Old 05-05-2014, 09:40 PM   #91
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Smile I done did it

Uploaded a bunch, mostly stuff already at RP plus a few rejects and some other junk that was on my hard drive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124319201@N04/

I like the photo stream format, and when enlarged the individual images show well. But I wonder how many people will find it. And I'm not sure if it is worth trying to organize it in any way. The big advantage of RP is it is subject specific.

Interesting experiment.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:15 PM   #92
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Uploaded a bunch, mostly stuff already at RP plus a few rejects and some other junk that was on my hard drive.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/124319201@N04/

I like the photo stream format, and when enlarged the individual images show well. But I wonder how many people will find it. And I'm not sure if it is worth trying to organize it in any way. The big advantage of RP is it is subject specific.

Interesting experiment.
I add each of my photos to an "album". That way if someone does come to my profile to look for a specific photo, they can look up the appropriate album to narrow their search down.

Each album is named for the railroad and the subdivision or line the photos are taken on. There is also an album dedicated to heritage units for folks looking specifically for those.
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:25 PM   #93
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Does anyone actually use flickr tags? That is phrased in an extreme manner, I suppose. But in practice, are those useful either in attracting views or in conducting one's own searches?
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Old 05-05-2014, 11:02 PM   #94
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Does anyone actually use flickr tags? That is phrased in an extreme manner, I suppose. But in practice, are those useful either in attracting views or in conducting one's own searches?
Yes, I tag like crazy, engine #s, railways, towns, you name it. I'm pretty sure it does help with google searches, etc.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:23 AM   #95
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Does anyone actually use flickr tags? That is phrased in an extreme manner, I suppose. But in practice, are those useful either in attracting views or in conducting one's own searches?
I tag, too. Names of towns, railroads, etc. I sometimes tag myself. Obvious tagging gets down in OSE so that when I upload to either Flickr or FAA, it is automatically loaded.
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Old 05-06-2014, 12:31 AM   #96
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Does anyone actually use flickr tags? That is phrased in an extreme manner, I suppose. But in practice, are those useful either in attracting views or in conducting one's own searches?
Always remember: you are competing for views with maybe 6 BILLION other images. You need to provide ways for people to find yours. Upload something with just a "DSC_1234" or "IMG_1234" file name, and the images might as well be private.
So- how to get views on Flickr?
-Good captions
-Tag, tag, tag
-Post to Flickr groups
-See deserving photos by others? Give them some faves and comments.
Every fave or comment is a link to you!
-"Follow" others? I (EDIT) DO! Your activity feed will grow into an excellent daily gallery of very good images from those you follow.
- See a good photostream? Check out his/her Favorites! It's like a
treasure hunt!

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Old 05-06-2014, 01:07 AM   #97
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Flickr treats captions the same way it treats tags. Tagging is a pain in the assignment, a complete caption is all you need, location, line, locomotive, etc.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:08 AM   #98
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The geo specific Facebook pages are not really for photography but more for heads ups and thing like that. Very useful in that regard.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:27 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
Sure, I know it doesn't take long to do that, but I can simply eyeball a shot without pulling up a grid or ruler and checking this or that. But, it's not a prudent investment of my time to obsess over such an innocuous issue.
That's because you aren't shackled with OCD. Some of us are, and no matter what it is in life, it has to be a certain way, or else we crawl up into the fetal position (mentally, of course). I have to deal with it every day with my job, and sometimes it affects how much work I can get done. It shouldn't, but I just...can't...help it.

I don't give a damn if RP or flickr or anyone else thinks my photo is unlevel or not, but I HAVE to have it level...or else it nags at my brain. And the time spent is irrelevant in that regard, because it's time spent setting my mind at ease.
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Old 05-06-2014, 01:36 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by hoydie17 View Post
I also became irritated with the fact that there seems to be a group for every state, mainline, shortline, industrial siding and rip track from here to hell and back. How in the world anyone can possibly get any utility with all the cross-posting and rampant speculation is beyond me. There's just too much conflicting and outright wrong information to stay reasonably well informed. Add the drama on top of that, and ugh... my head hurts thinking about it.
Well stated...and very true.

Well, now because of this thread, I'm following John, Ron and Sean. Looking forward to seeing your pics on flickr.
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