Old 09-08-2015, 08:26 PM   #1
JMeade
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Default Poor Aesthetic Quality

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...92&key=1354156

A similar shot was accepted by one of my favorite RP.net contributors, Dennis Livesey.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...506053&nseq=39

Is this a moot point, or worth an appeal?

Thanks.

- Joe
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Old 09-08-2015, 10:29 PM   #2
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Pure luck of the draw - me thinks. PAQs, to me, are the one rejection that are always a good appeal. It's in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 09-09-2015, 12:50 AM   #3
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The PAQ rejection just came up in recent but it is more than that. ie we don't want it or not enough RR content so hard to tell sometimes exactly.
The only thing I can see on yours is you seem to lost the balance top to bottom ie chopped off on top, not sure if that is valid comment???
Still seems worthy of inclusion.

I tried this little one, kind of a play on "distracting shadows." rejection If you want shadows!!!!. Not upset, maybe mine rejected for all three? Smile. When I was there it was neat how the shadows moved along the cars but lost in a still photo.


http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...11&key=1437644

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Old 09-09-2015, 06:25 PM   #4
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If you ask me, neither one of them should be accepted.

What the hell are we looking at? Thought for a minute it was "sanctuary" from Logan's Run or something...
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:42 PM   #5
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Tritto -

Luck of the draw to some extent (ie; an inconsistency issue)

I too, however, think the image would benefit had the top not been chopped.

Unlike Troy, I think this one should be accepted, but the Sanctuary reference is hilarious.

Hope you get one form or another in - it's interesting to see the same(ish) picture but with different lighting.

/Mitch
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:54 PM   #6
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Mitch, thank you for the suggestions.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewqueued.php?id=1419068

I have resubmitted another shot and will see if it will be accepted. Unless you're on the first floor and have a fish eye lens shooting straight up, I don't think you would be able to capture the entire Sky Reflector Net.

I take nothing away from Mr. Livesey and was inspired by him to visit this location to begin with.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:41 AM   #7
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We can't view photos in the que on the forum.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:57 AM   #8
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http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...68&key=8234986

Different shot, same rejection.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:57 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by troy12n View Post
If you ask me, neither one of them should be accepted.

What the hell are we looking at? Thought for a minute it was "sanctuary" from Logan's Run or something...
Dennis got his accepted because he ate fish, and plankton. And sea greens, and protein from the sea.
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Old 09-10-2015, 11:41 AM   #10
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Both are striking images that could do well on Flickr, but not as rail-related shots since the rail content is all in the captions.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:13 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Dennis got his accepted because he ate fish, and plankton. And sea greens, and protein from the sea.
Actually, I feasted on Soylent Green. ☺

I realized when I submitted my image to RP acceptance was going to be very iffy and was bracing for a “lack of railroad content” rejection. I, of course, was quite pleased they took it.

Long ago, I was working as a movie camera assistant with one of the best movie camera operators in the business. On one set up, he had one eye to the Panaflex's eyepiece and the other closed. It was "lock off" shot where the camera was not supposed to move. Looking at him, I noticed that under his closed eyelid, his eyes were moving all around. This is odd I thought, nothing in the frame is moving, why are his eyes moving so much? After the take, I asked him.

He told me one of the most important things to look out for is the edges of the frame to make sure nothing untoward, like a mic boom or crew member or a grip stand, etc, etc was entering the frame and ruining it.

In rail still photography, I took this lesson to mean the edges are just as important as the main center of interest. So I follow two rules "it is in or it is out?" and "is the frame 'touching' something it should not?"

Notice that in mine I included the circle of lights on the top of the frame. They add symmetry to the frame and form-wise contrast with the rest of the image. I waited until the intense magenta color from the advertising signs was at its height for nothing gets the eyes excited like the color red. Finally, the absolutely essential human element is there to give it scale and interest. They are leaning back and engaged with the amazing scene in front of them.

One thing O. Winston Link learned in his beginning photography days before WWII while working for a public relations firm is that newspaper and magazine photo editors knew his game was to get free publicity for his clients and they would refuse any pedestrian attempt at getting a photo in.

But Link also knew that the newspapers needed photos to attract readers and if he could make his photos so irresistible, the editors would take them like candy.

With my image I attempted the same, to make it good enough that it would overcome RP’s resistance to “lack of railroad content.”
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dennis A. Livesey View Post
Actually, I feasted on Soylent Green. ☺
Good one.

Quote:
Long ago, I was working as a movie camera assistant with one of the best movie camera operators in the business. On one set up, he had one eye to the Panaflex's eyepiece and the other closed. It was "lock off" shot where the camera was not supposed to move. Looking at him, I noticed that under his closed eyelid, his eyes were moving all around. This is odd I thought, nothing in the frame is moving, why are his eyes moving so much? After the take, I asked him.

He told me one of the most important things to look out for is the edges of the frame to make sure nothing untoward, like a mic boom or crew member or a grip stand, etc, etc was entering the frame and ruining it.

In rail still photography, I took this lesson to mean the edges are just as important as the main center of interest. So I follow two rules "it is in or it is out?" and "is the frame 'touching' something it should not?"
I can relate. With my type of photographic work, I'm constantly scanning the edges of my compositions for the framing to be as perfect as can be. That leads to me constantly moving things and recomposing (which can be time consuming, but it makes the end result worth it). I hate things jutting in from the edges that shouldn't be there and that also do nothing to compliment the subject within the photo.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:31 PM   #13
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Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your input. Everything you said was spot on and after studying your photograph more, other elements were omitted when I took my frame. The odds of having the two people leaning on the hand rail in your photograph, organically admiring, was the icing on the cake.

Did you use a wide angle lens to capture your photo? Even at 24mm on my Canon 5D Mark III, I was wishing I had something like a 16-35mm at times.

Last edited by JMeade; 09-14-2015 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 09-14-2015, 01:43 PM   #14
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Hi Dennis,
Did you use a wide angle lens to capture your photo? Even at 24mm on my Canon 5D Mark III, I was wishing I had something like a 16-35mm at times.
Although it is my least-used lens, that 16-35mm is still a must-have. Whether shooting inside a museum, a locomotive cab, or for an in-your-face effect, the 24-70mm or anything similar just doesn't cut it. If you don't have one, it should be on your short-list of things to save your nickels for. In fact, just having a super-wide prime of 20mm or less can be nearly as good, less expensive, and a whole lot lighter to tote around. Honestly, once you have some sort of super-wide lens, you'll feel naked if it's not in your bag.
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Old 09-14-2015, 04:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMeade View Post
Hi Dennis,

Thank you for your input. Everything you said was spot on and after studying your photograph more, other elements were omitted when I took my frame. The odds of having the two people leaning on the hand rail in your photograph, organically admiring, was the icing on the cake.

Did you use a wide angle lens to capture your photo? Even at 24mm on my Canon 5D Mark III, I was wishing I had something like a 16-35mm at times.
I did the shot with a Canon 1DX-C full frame camera with the 17mm end of a Canon 17-40mm L lens.

I shot it the opening day of the Fulton Center. Like other opening days, this presented great opportunities. There are millions of people taking pictures and the staff just lets it happen. If this was a normal day I would drawn attention to what I did next to get the shot.

That was to put my bag down, then lay down myself with my head against the bag and the camera to my face. This gave me every inch possible for capturing the scene with the 17mm. Believe me, I wish I had that extra mm to 16mm!

It is interesting how nothing happens visually between 399mm and 400mm yet the world can change between 16mm and 17mm.

To expand on what Kevin says about ultra wide lenses, I agree that it is rare that you need them or other extreme lengths. They simply cannot be used all the time. However, you must be prepared for those times when nothing else will do. I learned this when borrowing my daughters 15mm semi-fisheye lens. I couldn't imagine how this could possibly be of any use. In time however, I found it coming out of the bag for those shots that couldn't be captured any other way. I began to call it my "secret weapon" and eagerly looked for opportunities to use it. I might use only once a day or not at all but I was so glad to have it in my arsenal.

Here is my favorite example of the 15mm Semi Fisheye on a 40D APS-C camera. One of things I like about this shot is the reality of the scene worked perfectly with the lens's characteristics and thus I did no distortion correction in Photoshop which I normally would done with this lens.

And this all comes back to Kevin as he was was giving me "The Cog" tour when I took the shot.

Image © Dennis A. Livesey
PhotoID: 287493
Photograph © Dennis A. Livesey
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Old 09-14-2015, 04:26 PM   #16
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Indeed nothing in that shot says fish-eye. Very interesting!
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Old 09-14-2015, 04:33 PM   #17
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Thank you all for your responses.

Yes, the difference at the low end of the focal length is great with every MM. While my Tamron 24-70 VC lens is great, one of my next purchases will for sure be the 16-35L F4. I feel limited more often than I thought even after going FF with the 5D Mark III.
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Old 09-14-2015, 07:47 PM   #18
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Not all super-wides act like fish-eyes, and while they do have a lot of distortion, it is usually correctable to the point where it is not obnoxious.

This image was shot with the Nikkor 16-35mm f/4 VR at 16mm on a D4 camera:

Image © Kevin Madore
PhotoID: 510981
Photograph © Kevin Madore


I used the LR lens profile and did some perspective correction, and it looks OK. If you shot this with a 24-70mm at 24mm, it would be very tight, and significant elements would likely be cut off.

As noted earlier, you really don't need a super-wide zoom. In most cases, when you need 14, 16 or 20 mm, you need all of it. In that case, just get the widest prime you can find. It would be half the cost and probably less than half the weight, but you still get the shot.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:15 PM   #19
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Kevin, maybe true in the expensive world of FF, but way down here in EPS-C land the zoom is not going to be more expensive. In fact, the Canon 10-18 is a real treat at $300, I would think - I myself use the 10-22 (now $600) as the 10-18 was not available at the time. I like the zoom because there are lots of times where 10 (16mm FF) is too wide and I like the flexibility of wide angle framing. I much more often leave a shot too wide and have image quality issues than I miss out. So I like having the 10-22 (16-35 FF) that I can use at 12 and later decide I should have been at 15, but at least I wasn't at 10. Yes, you get the shot with the 10, but I'd rather get it better with the zoom and not carry around a whole set of wide angle primes.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:23 PM   #20
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And this all comes back to Kevin as he was was giving me "The Cog" tour when I took the shot.

Image © Dennis A. Livesey
PhotoID: 287493
Photograph © Dennis A. Livesey
Those cog units look the best when they are level.


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Old 09-14-2015, 11:35 PM   #21
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Thank you all for your responses.

Yes, the difference at the low end of the focal length is great with every MM. While my Tamron 24-70 VC lens is great, one of my next purchases will for sure be the 16-35L F4. I feel limited more often than I thought even after going FF with the 5D Mark III.
It is a very great time for lens buyers. Up till a few years ago, I would have advised against 3rd party lenses and to stick to only OEM lenses.

Now however, 3rd party lenses, particularly Sigma and Rokinion/Samyang, deserve serious consideration. You will get excellent design, construction and optical performance with them and at very affordable prices.

Here is a selection of 3rd party wide angle lenses, both prime and zoom. Keep in mind the Rokinion/Samyang lenses are all manual, no auto focus/aperture.

http://goo.gl/q0jshu

Full disclosure: While I work at this store, I get no commission so I am just offering this information as I would to any customer.
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Old 09-14-2015, 11:36 PM   #22
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Those cog units look the best when they are level.


ROTFLMAO!

NiceTiceRice, you are sick!
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Old 09-15-2015, 01:05 AM   #23
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Kevin, maybe true in the expensive world of FF, but way down here in EPS-C land the zoom is not going to be more expensive. In fact, the Canon 10-18 is a real treat at $300
$300? Wow, that Canon sh....stuff is cheap!

Nikon is more expensive. Even the Nikkor DX 10-24mm f3.5-4.5 ED is about $900. I have one of those for my DX cameras and it's a decent piece of glass. With Nikon, the only prime option you have for DX is the 10.5 mm f/2.8 fisheye, and that sucker is almost $800.

With FX (full frame), Nikon offers a lot more choices. So if you're not up for spending $1,300 for the 16-35mm f/4 VR, you can instead buy the 20mm f/1.8 for about $800. Yes, with that one you have to zoom with your feet. As I noted in my previous post, I have found that when I need that super-wide, I usually need everything it has to offer. If they had a 16mm prime, I'd probably carry that and save a bunch of weight.
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Old 09-15-2015, 01:07 AM   #24
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ROTFLMAO!

NiceTiceRice, you are sick!
I think that boiler would be exploding right about now, because the crown sheet would be dry as a bone!
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