Old 01-17-2011, 07:18 PM   #1
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Cool A Cropping WTF ?

Submitted approximately this shot and it was rejected for "Bad Cropping." I followed the rule of 3rds but ok, I tightened up the shot a bit and submitted this:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=992728997

Rejected for "Bad Cropping."


While this rather loosely cropped photo is acceptable:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=343234

I've had formal training in Photography and darned if I have been able to quantify what the "rules of composition" are here. They are not, IMHO consistent. That's my own myopic opinion, I expect.


This one was rejected literally 3 seconds after uploading it:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1220853836

I appealed it, always nicely, on the basis that fair judgment cannot be give any image in 2-3 seconds.


While this particular post might be interpreted as unabashed whining, that is not the intent. Am suggesting that the composition guidelines be clarified and are interpretable. I don't want to waste the screeners time and would far rather go into the field armed with replicable composition guidelines.
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 07:23 PM   #2
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb

The signal on the right is too close to the edge (in my opinion) and the front of the train is too close to the left edge.

It is hard to explain but it just doesn't look right.

Perhaps you could not crop it so close.

Or cut off the end of the train so the signal is not visible and add a little to the left side so the engine is not so close to the edge of the frame.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 07:35 PM   #3
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,892
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
The signal on the right is too close to the edge (in my opinion) and the front of the train is too close to the left edge.

It is hard to explain but it just doesn't look right.
Agreed. Somehow it looks unlevel to me also, even though the signal looks right to me. This ay be coming from the tight crop, too throwing things off.
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:35 PM   #4
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Default Completely Agree on Your Comment...

We're on the same page. The cropping is too tight and combined with the compression effect of using a long lens, some of what makes up a pleasing, natural composition have been lost. The 2nd submission, "correcting" for "Bad Cropping" is unbalanced. No arguments there.

That said, here is the initial submission, also rejected for "Bad Cropping:"

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=895886&key=0

IMHO, the first shot was much more balanced and open. While I'd rather not have included as much foreground, to crop it out would have blown any sense of the general rule of 3rds to pieces and would have resulted in just another train centered in an image. FWIW, I chose to compose the image such that most of the train is in or toward the upper 1/3 of the image.

Ideally, I'd liked to have made this shot from another 10' or so to the right, enough to see the entire number board on the road slug. There was the problem of that area not being accessible at this location. Just speculating, because I didn't test-frame it, that a "to the right perspective" would have relocated the signal, a key object in the composition, to the left a bit more which might have detracted from the sense of image balance I tried to convey.

Still, these "rejected for cropping" w/out further comment does not convey a sense of what composition approach photographers should be mindful of when shooting for RP. There are many examples of excellent photography and photo-technique to be found here on RP. There is also a LOT of material that is not even up to the "questionable" bar which seems to make it by the screening process enough to be noticeable.

Not to call anyone out or embarrass the photographer but how is this applicable to RP screening standards? Do we have guidelines for impressionist photos that I'm missing?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=350338

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
The signal on the right is too close to the edge (in my opinion) and the front of the train is too close to the left edge.

It is hard to explain but it just doesn't look right.

Perhaps you could not crop it so close.

Or cut off the end of the train so the signal is not visible and add a little to the left side so the engine is not so close to the edge of the frame.
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016

Last edited by NS-Norfolk; 01-17-2011 at 09:05 PM.
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 08:35 PM   #5
cblaz
Senior Member
 
cblaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Marlboro, New Jersey
Posts: 1,007
Default

The problem is there's too much foreground in both rejections. No need to show us all that ballast, show some sky and trees above the train instead.

- Chris
__________________
- Christopher Blaszczyk
My shots on RP: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=284
cblaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2011, 09:46 PM   #6
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
The problem is there's too much foreground in both rejections. No need to show us all that ballast, show some sky and trees above the train instead.

- Chris
Ya, that was your original problem.

Also need to rotate it to the right until the left side of the engine is plumb with the left side of the frame.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 12:40 AM   #7
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Unhappy Cleaned it up, still rejected

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
Ya, that was your original problem.

Also need to rotate it to the right until the left side of the engine is plumb with the left side of the frame.
I chose another shot which had less foreground in favor of sky. Also, the train is on a banked curve, thats why the level issue.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...key=1264743453

Still rejected it. Oh well....
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 12:44 AM   #8
rathman11
Senior Member
 
rathman11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bolivar, MO
Posts: 243
Default

Too much on the left side. Cut out about half of the dead space and make minor adjustments for proper dimensions and you should be set.
__________________
Jason R.

My RP photos

Flickr Photos
rathman11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 01:08 AM   #9
mark woody
Senior Member
 
mark woody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Mudgee N.S.W. Australia
Posts: 641
Default

I had a go at the shot here's my take fwiw.

Last edited by mark woody; 05-14-2011 at 11:29 PM.
mark woody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 01:31 AM   #10
lock4244
Senior Member
 
lock4244's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The City Below Vaughan
Posts: 1,048
Default

The rejected shots are too tight on the power on the left. Cropped too close to the edge. The accepted shot has some breathing space and a balanced look... the signals form part of a frame and, IMO, are ok at the edge, whereas the power is the subject and throws the balance off.

Points for calling yourself out as an example, though
__________________
Mike Lockwood

Insert witty comment here

Hot girl on girl action here!

More Pics Here
lock4244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 02:28 AM   #11
cblaz
Senior Member
 
cblaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Marlboro, New Jersey
Posts: 1,007
Default

Mark's leveling and crop looks good to me. And no matter how much of a superelevated curve the train is on, if the signals isn't vertical, it'll get rejected every time.

- Chris
__________________
- Christopher Blaszczyk
My shots on RP: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=284
cblaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 02:30 AM   #12
troy12n
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,333
Default

I dont care as much about the foreground than I do about them being way too tight...
troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 04:24 AM   #13
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy12n View Post
I dont care as much about the foreground than I do about them being way too tight...
But Troy, I thought you liked them tight.

Big round and tight.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 12:47 PM   #14
troy12n
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,333
Default

I LOVE them tight, not so much on the big and round tho...
troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2011, 08:08 PM   #15
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Red face Thanks All !

Quote:
Originally Posted by rathman11 View Post
Too much on the left side. Cut out about half of the dead space and make minor adjustments for proper dimensions and you should be set.
First, thanks for all the constructive comments and the crop and level work !

I'll crop out the left side, just a bit. I'd hate to set level referenced on the loco, its on a fairly steep, superelevated curve (why its that way going into/out of a yard, I dunno). Rather, I'll pay particular attention to leveling against the signal mast (which is vertical in "real life").

I tend towards having "breathing space" surrounding the subjects in my photos. That said, there are other times and subject matter for that. If nothing else, this thread has been a lesson in "physician, heal thyself" regarding what composite of subject(s) make up a composition v/s just another snapshot of a train.

We'll see what happens after clean up this evening. I kinda like the shot and its seldom the road slugs here can be seen/photographed w/out trespassing, let alone one that has been just shopped and freshly painted.
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016

Last edited by NS-Norfolk; 01-18-2011 at 08:13 PM.
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 06:44 PM   #16
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Question Pulling out of Hair to Begin

Quote:
Originally Posted by lock4244 View Post
The rejected shots are too tight on the power on the left. Cropped too close to the edge. The accepted shot has some breathing space and a balanced look... the signals form part of a frame and, IMO, are ok at the edge, whereas the power is the subject and throws the balance off.

Points for calling yourself out as an example, though
Rad the comments and took a hard look at the shot. Ended up leveling the shot against the signal mast after making it vertical. Result, "Rejected for uneven horizon." Whaaaatttt???? Pulled a straight line down the shot in Photoshop and saw that it would take 0.1 to the right to make it spot on, vertical. Didn't the screeners went quite to that extreme but, what the heck. Submitted it a final time:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=896658&key=0

It was rejected for cropping. I guess my frustration is understanding what makes up acceptable v/s "bad" cropping. Classically, its acceptable for a photograph of a point subject to have enough foreground and background to give the viewer a sense of place. I suppose I could crop out ALL the foreground which would trim off a bit more to the left but the end result would be just a plain old train photograph.

What am I missing here? Probably my whits as in frustrated out of.....
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 07:21 PM   #17
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NS-Norfolk View Post
I'll crop out the left side, just a bit.
Well, you didn't just do that, you also added a LOT of sky. So the bad cropping, to my eye, is that you have the train much too low in the frame.

Also, to me, in the last version you cranked up the saturation, and the sky is too strong and too cyan, and the browns are too strong. Why did you change the color?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NS-Norfolk View Post
It was rejected for cropping. I guess my frustration is understanding what makes up acceptable v/s "bad" cropping. Classically, its acceptable for a photograph of a point subject to have enough foreground and background to give the viewer a sense of place. I suppose I could crop out ALL the foreground which would trim off a bit more to the left but the end result would be just a plain old train photograph.
No offense, but how is the current version not just a "plain old train photograph"? It is fine, good luck with it, I'm not down on it, but it is a train at a signal, tis all.

The problem has been your top and bottom. It is a matter of taste, at one level matching to RP's taste (at another level matching to general expectations). Look at a bunch of RP shots, see how your versions so far have been different.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 07:37 PM   #18
lock4244
Senior Member
 
lock4244's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The City Below Vaughan
Posts: 1,048
Default

Walk away from the shot for about three months... revisit it with a fresh mindset. Seems you are starting to beat your head against the wall.
__________________
Mike Lockwood

Insert witty comment here

Hot girl on girl action here!

More Pics Here
lock4244 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 07:52 PM   #19
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb Hum......

Quote:
Originally Posted by NS-Norfolk View Post
...[portion omitted]...I'll crop out the left side, just a bit. I'd hate to set level referenced on the loco, its on a fairly steep, superelevated curve (why its that way going into/out of a yard, I dunno). Rather, I'll pay particular attention to leveling against the signal mast (which is vertical in "real life")...[remainder omitted]...
When I first saw this reply I was taken aback.

If you don't want to listen to the suggestions that people have, or worse yet, argue with them about what to do, it is done at your peril.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=896658&key=0

I am not sure why you would submit this version, but now instead of paddling in circles, you are clearly moving backwards.

Perhaps you should just re-shoot this.

Last edited by Holloran Grade; 01-19-2011 at 07:55 PM.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 08:18 PM   #20
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Default Yep, sure did

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
Well, you didn't just do that, you also added a LOT of sky. So the bad cropping, to my eye, is that you have the train much too low in the frame.

Also, to me, in the last version you cranked up the saturation, and the sky is too strong and too cyan, and the browns are too strong. Why did you change the color?

No offense, but how is the current version not just a "plain old train photograph"? It is fine, good luck with it, I'm not down on it, but it is a train at a signal, tis all.

The problem has been your top and bottom. It is a matter of taste, at one level matching to RP's taste (at another level matching to general expectations). Look at a bunch of RP shots, see how your versions so far have been different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cblaz View Post
The problem is there's too much foreground in both rejections. No need to show us all that ballast, show some sky and trees above the train instead.

- Chris
Actually, I selected another image after agreeing with the comment above. Here is the original and the point we started this sojurn:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=895886&key=0

To go with a tight crop, you end up here:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=992728997

That's just plain krap.

The picture was shot in RAW and downsized/converted to .jpg using Canon's software. I needed to import it into Photoshop (Elements 6) in order to perform incremental leveling. I find that upon exporting it back out of Photo Shop/Save for Web, tends to flatten the color just a bit. I try and make the end result look like the unprocessed RAW. Sometimes the results are very good, sometimes not. Looking at the shot on my monitor at work, I agree with your saturation comment.

Lets face it, about any picture on any rail photo site is just a "picture of a train....." climbing a hill, running through the snow, sitting in a yard, you name it but I see the point of you're comment and don't disagree.
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016

Last edited by NS-Norfolk; 01-19-2011 at 08:26 PM.
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 08:24 PM   #21
NS-Norfolk
Member
 
NS-Norfolk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 32
Default Hmmmm, a point well made....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloran Grade View Post
When I first saw this reply I was taken aback.

If you don't want to listen to the suggestions that people have, or worse yet, argue with them about what to do, it is done at your peril.

I am not sure why you would submit this version, but now instead of paddling in circles, you are clearly moving backwards.

Perhaps you should just re-shoot this.
The comment you quote was not offered as argumentative, rather as a point of discussion. Its an exercise in futility to truly argue about a photograph. After all, only photographer truly understands what he or she was trying to capture. c'est?

I really wanted to come away with a better understanding of parameters behind the "bad cropping rejection." That said, perhaps your final comment is the answer IRT this shot. The challenge is to catch the road slugs at a place to photograph them without trespassing. This spot is literally in the shadow of NS' Corporate HQ which makes that exercise a bit problematic.
__________________
Chuck Rippel

Canon EOS 5D MKII | Canon F1n + Assorted FD Glass
Canon EF20-35mm | Canon EF24-70mm f2.8L | Canon EF28-135mm IS | Canon EF70-200mm f2.8L | Canon EF 300mm f4.0L

Chesapeake, VA

My Photos at: http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=33016

Last edited by NS-Norfolk; 01-19-2011 at 08:29 PM.
NS-Norfolk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 08:25 PM   #22
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Chuck, you do know there are more than two possible crops, right?

As for color, it wasn't the reason for rejection so I wont push the issue but if the colors are changing that much from shot to shot then you don't really know how to use your software properly. That will limit what you are able to do, here or down the road.

As for your "plain old train photograph" comment, I responded because it seemed like you intended to make a point by that and I didn't understand what you meant to say. Perhaps it was actually just a throw-away line with no significance.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 08:32 PM   #23
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NS-Norfolk View Post
The picture was shot in RAW and downsized/converted to .jpg using Canon's software. I needed to import it into Photoshop (Elements 6) in order to perform incremental leveling. I find that upon exporting it back out of Photo Shop/Save for Web, tends to flatten the color just a bit.
Two things:

1) Save for Web is a bad idea, for one because it does not include the EXIF information so others can't look at your settings and help, in those cases where knowing those settings is useful. If it affects color also that is news to me but it could be. At any rate, I recommend doing a Save As instead.

It does occur to me if you are manually transferring from Canon software (DPP?) to PSE you may be losing the EXIF anyway, I don't know one way or the other.

2) You can update your PSE6 to support reading Canon 5D raw files directly into PSE, should you choose to. If you don't have that ability now, you can upgrade the ACR, to version 5.2, I believe.

http://www.adobe.com/support/downloa...atform=Windows

PS: Mark's version in post #9 looks good to me also.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots

Last edited by JRMDC; 01-19-2011 at 08:35 PM.
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 08:44 PM   #24
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb

Why don't you upload a full frame version of this and lets all take a look.

I don't see why you can't get this image accepted, problem is that RP.Net uses a formula and so far none of your versions follow that formula.

We tried to give you hints about what could help, but you keep changing other things so now the target is moving.

Lets see what the RAW file converted to *.jpeg looks like.

Last edited by Holloran Grade; 01-19-2011 at 09:07 PM.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2011, 08:51 PM   #25
coborn35
Senior Member
 
coborn35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 1,398
Default

Why not just edit the JPG instead of converting the RAW file.
__________________
I personally have had a problem with those trying to tell us to turn railroad photography into an "art form." It's fine for them to do so, I welcome it in fact, but what I do have a problem with is that the practitioners of the more "arty" shots, I have found, tend to look down their nose's at others who are shooting more "mundane" shots.
Railroad photography is what you make of it, but one way is not "better" than another, IMHO. Unless you have a pole right thought the nose of the engine! -SG
coborn35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.