Old 07-27-2010, 12:47 AM   #1
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default Thoughts please on this bad angle rejection...

Hi,
Not uploaded for a while, I was looking for some fresh material. I tried 2 today, one I was confident about as it was a nice shot and a bog standard angle. The second shot was my favourite of the two and typically that was the one that got bounced:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=838861&key=0

This isn't one that can be fixed with photoshop I know, it's a do I appeal or give up on it situation. I've never seen engines face the other way so theirs no chance of getting it coming into the station anything other than tender or bunker first and to be honest, in my opinion, I think it works well just the way it is, departing, framed by the signal, driver leaning out, even the passenger taking a picture out the window adds character.

Thoughts please! Thanks in advance.
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 02:37 AM   #2
Dennis A. Livesey
Senior Member
 
Dennis A. Livesey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,985
Default

I like it as is. What the RP screener feels is something else. Perhaps he didn't like how tight it is. Looser framing available?
Appeal should work.
__________________
Dennis

I Foam Therefore I Am.

My pix on RailPics:

I am on Flickr as well:

"Dennis is such a God, he could do that with a camera obscura and some homemade acetate." Holloran Grade

"To me it looks drawn in in Paintshop. It looks like a puddle of orange on the sky." SFO777
Dennis A. Livesey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 02:52 AM   #3
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,040
Default

I also like this shot. Appeal it if it is important to you.

Keep in mind however, that too many appeals can put you on the bad side of the screeners. Only you know how much you have appealed recently.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 03:35 AM   #4
Mgoldman
Senior Member
 
Mgoldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,641
Default

That's a tricky shot - it's a going away shot but everyone is the shot is looking somewhat towards us so in that respect, it works.

The extreme angle is likely hit or miss. I'm not a fan but Dennis and Charles are so maybe you'll have similar luck with an appeal.

I'd have let it in as is yet the overcast sky might be adding to the first screener's decision.

/Mitch
Mgoldman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 04:03 AM   #5
IHapsias
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
That's a tricky shot - it's a going away shot but everyone is the shot is looking somewhat towards us so in that respect, it works.

The extreme angle is likely hit or miss. I'm not a fan but Dennis and Charles are so maybe you'll have similar luck with an appeal.

I'd have let it in as is yet the overcast sky might be adding to the first screener's decision.

/Mitch

Mitch, maybe the person cut off in the bottom left hand corner might have a thing to do with it. I'm not a know-it-all, but that did catch my eye..

- Ian Hapsias
  Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 07:47 AM   #6
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHapsias View Post
Mitch, maybe the person cut off in the bottom left hand corner might have a thing to do with it. I'm not a know-it-all, but that did catch my eye..

- Ian Hapsias
Good spot, I'll see what I can do about that and try again, that way I've tried to fix the shot over a straight appeal and I'll add a short explanation to the screener. Hopefully I'll get a different a different screener who sees it different.
Cheers all,
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 04:23 PM   #7
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,898
Default

FWIW, I don't like the shot at all and would not waste the admins time with an appeal. For one, the shot is too tight. The people don't add interest to the shot in my opinion and the man in the car is cut ff. The shot also appears to be leaning to the right. I'd imagine if you dd appeal, the shot would not get in. Just my two cents worth. Take it for what it is.
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 04:44 PM   #8
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,734
Default

The shot has a cluttered, clumsy feeling to me.

add another opinion to Joe's side of the fence.

Loyd L.
__________________
Social Media elevates the absurd and mediocre to a point where they aren't anymore, and that is a tragedy.

My personal photography site
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 08:46 PM   #9
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
FWIW, I don't like the shot at all and would not waste the admins time with an appeal. For one, the shot is too tight. The people don't add interest to the shot in my opinion and the man in the car is cut ff. The shot also appears to be leaning to the right. I'd imagine if you dd appeal, the shot would not get in. Just my two cents worth. Take it for what it is.
Joe I've got to say your ability to critique photos is probably the worst I've ever come across. Your comments are patronising and unhelpful to both the photographer and anyone else who's viewing the thread. As a basic rule of thumb when critiquing a photograph state what you like about the image and suggest ways it could be improved. Simply listing dislikes helps no one and is frankly insulting.
Thank you everyone else, for those who did like it, I will be re-looking at it and trying again when I get chance.
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 08:57 PM   #10
coborn35
Senior Member
 
coborn35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 1,398
Default

I like it.
__________________
I personally have had a problem with those trying to tell us to turn railroad photography into an "art form." It's fine for them to do so, I welcome it in fact, but what I do have a problem with is that the practitioners of the more "arty" shots, I have found, tend to look down their nose's at others who are shooting more "mundane" shots.
Railroad photography is what you make of it, but one way is not "better" than another, IMHO. Unless you have a pole right thought the nose of the engine! -SG
coborn35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 09:04 PM   #11
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
FWIW, I don't like the shot at all and would not waste the admins time with an appeal. For one, the shot is too tight. The people don't add interest to the shot in my opinion and the man in the car is cut ff. The shot also appears to be leaning to the right. I'd imagine if you dd appeal, the shot would not get in. Just my two cents worth. Take it for what it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
Joe I've got to say your ability to critique photos is probably the worst I've ever come across. Your comments are patronising and unhelpful to both the photographer and anyone else who's viewing the thread. As a basic rule of thumb when critiquing a photograph state what you like about the image and suggest ways it could be improved. Simply listing dislikes helps no one and is frankly insulting.
Thank you everyone else, for those who did like it, I will be re-looking at it and trying again when I get chance.
Mark
I am someone who likes the idea of the shot but finds the bottom cramped.

Putting that aside, Mark, you are mostly off-base in your assessment of Joe. He in fact was quite helpful; he gave you FOUR specific ways the shot could be improved. Furthermore, you apparently do not realize that, in many cases, necessarily, a dislike and a means of improvement must be the flip sides of the same coin. He dislikes the cut off man, the means of improvement is not to cut off the man, he finds the shot is leaning, the means of improvement is to rotate the shot until it is not learning, etc. And perhaps there is nothing he likes about the shot and he chooses not to make up a reason.

In the longer run, Mark, you will find this forum to be a) quite helpful in most cases, and b) not one where opinions are soft-pedaled. He doesn't like your shot. His first sentence was phrased a bit more strongly than I would phrase it in his position but I see no insult in it at all. It is not an insult to tell someone you don't like their shot, if in fact you do not. When accompanied by a detailed list of reasons why, it can be quite helpful, if read in a spirit of learning.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 09:22 PM   #12
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,898
Default

I guess I could have worded the first sentence differently. I worded it the way I did because the posters above me liked the shot well enough. I wanted to make sure the OP understood I did not agree with their assessment. I'm not going to give the standard "I'm sorry if I offended anyone" unapology. But I have been told that maybe I'm a bit harsh with my comments sometimes. That's something I'll have to consider and reconsider over time. Maybe they're right.

I stand by my comments on the shot in question. The OP came to these forums looking for opinions. I gave mine. Others gave theirs. Take what you want out of them and discard the rest.

Thank you, Janusz, for your comments.
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 09:34 PM   #13
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
I am someone who likes the idea of the shot but finds the bottom cramped.

Putting that aside, Mark, you are mostly off-base in your assessment of Joe. He in fact was quite helpful; he gave you FOUR specific ways the shot could be improved. Furthermore, you apparently do not realize that, in many cases, necessarily, a dislike and a means of improvement must be the flip sides of the same coin. He dislikes the cut off man, the means of improvement is not to cut off the man, he finds the shot is leaning, the means of improvement is to rotate the shot until it is not learning, etc. And perhaps there is nothing he likes about the shot and he chooses not to make up a reason.

In the longer run, Mark, you will find this forum to be a) quite helpful in most cases, and b) not one where opinions are soft-pedaled. He doesn't like your shot. His first sentence was phrased a bit more strongly than I would phrase it in his position but I see no insult in it at all. It is not an insult to tell someone you don't like their shot, if in fact you do not. When accompanied by a detailed list of reasons why, it can be quite helpful, if read in a spirit of learning.
I was always though that when critiquing photos start with a positive, Joe starts with a big negative that I found insulting stating that he doesn't like the shot and it is a “waste of time” doing anything with it. He then lists things he does not like about the shot which again is a negative way or critiquing and the complete opposite of what I way shown as it is patronising and does not come across friendly or helpful. Frankly the old saying rings true, if you can't say something nice about about a person or in this case a photo, don't say anything at all.
I have found this form both friendly and informative but poor critiquing is a real bug bear of mine.
I'm not looking to make enemies, if Joe has a problem with my comments I'll happily work things out with him.
Best regards,
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 09:47 PM   #14
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
But I have been told that maybe I'm a bit harsh with my comments sometimes. That's something I'll have to consider and reconsider over time. Maybe they're right.
Thank you, Janusz, for your comments.
I often agree with your comments when I read threads but I just think your a bit too blunt in the way you say them which makes you sound patronising. I just think you need to expand on your comments sometimes which would help everyone. For example, you say you think the shot's tilted slightly. I've actually followed advice you gave me in the past and levelled off the vertical down the front of the cab. I'd be interested to know what in this instance you'd level the shot on.
Overall I'd urge everyone to try to give both positives as well as negatives when discussing shots. "Nice Photo" doesn't help anyone in the same way as "I don't like this photo" doesn't give any helpful advice.

Cheers,
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 09:58 PM   #15
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
I was always though that when critiquing photos start with a positive, Joe starts with a big negative that I found insulting stating that he doesn't like the shot and it is a “waste of time” doing anything with it.
What I actually said was not to waste the admins time with an appeal. You actually asked in your post if you should appeal. So I answered the question with my opinion -- not to appeal. You came here asking for our opinions and I gave you mine. Others did, too. Loyd said he agreed with me. But I'm the one you have a problem with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
He then lists things he does not like about the shot which again is a negative way or critiquing and the complete opposite of what I way shown as it is patronising and does not come across friendly or helpful.
I pointed out four things I did not like about the shot. How is that not helpful? As far as being patronizing or friendly, Idon't even know how to address that. Maybe I'm just not a friendly person. Who cares?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
Frankly the old saying rings true, if you can't say something nice about about a person or in this case a photo, don't say anything at all.
But you asked for opinions. If you just wanted positive opinions, there are places for that. By your logic, since I did not like the photograph, then I should have just not commented. Then, you'd have a few positive comments and none "negative." But how does that really help?

I love to help people with their questions. It helps make up for not getting out enough myself to take shots. I think it probably helps my own photography as well. I do call it like I see it. If you look at my other posts from today, you'll find that I have caled them like I saw them too, good, bad and indifferent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
if Joe has a problem with my comments I'll happily work things out with him.
No problems here. I just was hoping you'd see my point.
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 10:17 PM   #16
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
What I actually said was not to waste the admins time with an appeal. You actually asked in your post if you should appeal. So I answered the question with my opinion -- not to appeal. You came here asking for our opinions and I gave you mine. Others did, too. Loyd said he agreed with me. But I'm the one you have a problem with.

I pointed out four things I did not like about the shot. How is that not helpful? As far as being patronizing or friendly, Idon't even know how to address that. Maybe I'm just not a friendly person. Who cares?

But you asked for opinions. If you just wanted positive opinions, there are places for that. By your logic, since I did not like the photograph, then I should have just not commented. Then, you'd have a few positive comments and none "negative." But how does that really help?

I love to help people with their questions. It helps make up for not getting out enough myself to take shots. I think it probably helps my own photography as well. I do call it like I see it. If you look at my other posts from today, you'll find that I have caled them like I saw them too, good, bad and indifferent.

No problems here. I just was hoping you'd see my point.
Hi,
"I pointed out four things I did not like about the shot. How is that not helpful?"

That's my point exactly, it's a negative way of critiquing and that's what I find unfriendly.

"But you asked for opinions. If you just wanted positive opinions, there are places for that. By your logic, since I did not like the photograph, then I should have just not commented. Then, you'd have a few positive comments and none "negative." But how does that really help? "

Like I said I was always tought that when critiquing you should list both positives and negatives, one is no good without the other, especially if not expanded into an explanation.

I'm sorry I took offence, I'm passionate about my photography as are you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as long as it's expressed right.
Out of interest, what would you have leveled the image on. I'm thinking it's the perspective that's making it it look off level as I'm looking down?
Best regards,
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 10:19 PM   #17
crazytiger
Senior Member
 
crazytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NS Greenville District
Posts: 1,473
Default

On this forum, Mark, people are a little more blunt than your average people. That's ok. Also, on this forum, people will respect you as long as you respect them. When Joe voices what he thinks, you should respect that. Additionally, there is no set way that we critique shots on here; we just do. If you have a problem with the way he voiced his opinions on the shot, that might be more your problem than his. As he said, you asked for opinions; he gave his. What's your problem?

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
Like I said I was always tought that when critiquing you should list both positives and negatives, one is no good without the other, especially if not expanded into an explanation.
You seem to be saying that this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis A. Livesey View Post
I like it as is. What the RP screener feels is something else. Perhaps he didn't like how tight it is. Looser framing available?
Appeal should work.
...is no good. It is just as good as Joe's comments. And when you say, "But Dennis said 'Frame it looser.' That's critique," I say hardly. That is trying to figure out why the screener rejected it, which is very different.
__________________
Peter Lewis | Portfolio | Profile | Flickr | Facebook

Canon EOS 40D
Canon EF 50 f/1.8 II
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Friend
everytime i see non-train photos of yours i think, "so much talent. wasted on trains."

Last edited by crazytiger; 07-27-2010 at 10:24 PM.
crazytiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 10:32 PM   #18
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warton GR4 View Post
Out of interest, what would you have leveled the image on. I'm thinking it's the perspective that's making it it look off level as I'm looking down?
It could be the downard angle making it look unlevel to my eyes. On second glance, the edges of the locomotive near the center of the shot appear level. I was going by the signal on the right side of the frame which may not be a true resresentation with the angle of the shot.
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 10:32 PM   #19
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazytiger View Post
On this forum, Mark, people are a little more blunt than your average people. That's ok. Also, on this forum, people will respect you as long as you respect them. When Joe voices what he thinks, you should respect that. Additionally, there is no set way that we critique shots on here; we just do. If you have a problem with the way he voiced his opinions on the shot, that might be more your problem than his. As he said, you asked for opinions; he gave his. What's your problem?

Edit:

You seem to be saying that this...

...is no good. It is just as good as Joe's comments. And when you say, "But Dennis said 'Frame it looser.' That's critique," I say hardly. That is trying to figure out why the screener rejected it, which is very different.
Just because some people are blunt doesn't make it right now does it. I just think that everyone would get more out the forum with better critiquing. I'm sorry if that's not how things are done around here it's just what I'm used to. Denis suggests a problem and a solution. This is a positive way of critiquing and I found it helpful and friendly.
I'm sorry if people find offence with that, I'm only trying to help myself and others get the most out of the forum.
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 10:35 PM   #20
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
It could be the downard angle making it look unlevel to my eyes. On second glance, the edges of the locomotive near the center of the shot appear level. I was going by the signal on the right side of the frame which may not be a true resresentation with the angle of the shot.
Thanks, I hope theirs no hard feelings. Like I say some people are paranoid about grammar and spelling, critiquing is my bug bear.
Cheers,
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2010, 11:34 PM   #21
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,734
Default

I prefer the "school of hard knocks" approach to the "everyone is a winner" one. Maybe it's the years I spent in Human Resources that made me jaded.

Joe is harmless, I'm harmless, Mitch is the one to worry about.

P.S. Stay away from Obscar if Joe's commentary gets you riled up

Loyd L.
__________________
Social Media elevates the absurd and mediocre to a point where they aren't anymore, and that is a tragedy.

My personal photography site
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 12:46 AM   #22
Warton GR4
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
I prefer the "school of hard knocks" approach to the "everyone is a winner" one. Maybe it's the years I spent in Human Resources that made me jaded.

Joe is harmless, I'm harmless, Mitch is the one to worry about.

P.S. Stay away from Obscar if Joe's commentary gets you riled up

Loyd L.
Fair dos, I am sorry I went off on one. I just find blunt rude that's all. Constructive critasism is much friendlier and helpful in the long run. I work in a photography department where we do it all the time and I've become a far better photographer for it. Blunt to the point comments higlight problems yes, but it's solutions that are needed. As higlighted above, saying an image is off level is all well and good but without going onto sugest a solution it's s critasism of the image without giving a possible fix. It's basic manners in my book, but then I'm a Brit and we're famous for being pedantic about manners
Mark
Warton GR4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 03:19 AM   #23
Mgoldman
Senior Member
 
Mgoldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,641
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
I prefer the "school of hard knocks" approach to the "everyone is a winner" one. Maybe it's the years I spent in Human Resources that made me jaded.

Joe is harmless, I'm harmless, Mitch is the one to worry about.

Loyd L.
Actually, I'm in complete agreement with Mark and I'm glad he had the courage to state his opinion. I don't mind bluntness and appreciate constructive and honest criticism. Some word it better then others but there are those who simply like to go off in a tangent mentioning things absctract to the topic, often in a highly negative and uncontructive fashion. Note my remark early on, respectfully following Mark's suggestions before even prescribed. It's just common courtesy and respectful, yet, honest.

Loyd - knowing you means I know you are joking and the smiley confirms it but I don't get the punchline. I'll admit I can be sarcastic at times but it's all in a jovial way which I assume is obvious.

/Mitch
Mgoldman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 03:44 AM   #24
crazytiger
Senior Member
 
crazytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NS Greenville District
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
I prefer the "school of hard knocks" approach to the "everyone is a winner" one.

Loyd L.
I totally agree and think that most of the regulars on the forum would too.
__________________
Peter Lewis | Portfolio | Profile | Flickr | Facebook

Canon EOS 40D
Canon EF 50 f/1.8 II
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Friend
everytime i see non-train photos of yours i think, "so much talent. wasted on trains."
crazytiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2010, 05:00 AM   #25
Chris Z
Senior Member
 
Chris Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Libertyville, Il
Posts: 937
Send a message via Skype™ to Chris Z
Default

There's just a lot of different personalities on here. There's nothing wrong with Joe. It's just the way he is. Joe has helped me in the past get pictures in when I wouldn't even attempt to submit.

Actually, Joe's cool and a photographer, maybe he should be called Joe cool the photographer.

Chris Z

Must be something wrong with me tonight.
Chris Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.