Go Back   RailPictures.Net Forums > General Railroad Discussion Forums > U.S. Regional and Short Line Railroad Discussion

View Poll Results: Which Class II will next become a Class I
Alaska Railroad 4 25.00%
Elgin, Joliet, and Eastern Railway 0 0%
Florida East Coast Railway 5 31.25%
Iowa Interstate Railroad 3 18.75%
Long Island Railroad 0 0%
Montana Rail Link 2 12.50%
Montreal, Maine, and Atlantic Railway 0 0%
Pan Am Railways 0 0%
Other (Indicate in your post) 1 6.25%
None will, the don't want to pay the extra taxes, etc. 1 6.25%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-23-2009, 07:14 PM   #1
crazytiger
Senior Member
 
crazytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NS Greenville District
Posts: 1,473
Default Which Class II will next become a Class I?

:cuediscussion:
__________________
Peter Lewis | Portfolio | Profile | Flickr | Facebook

Canon EOS 40D
Canon EF 50 f/1.8 II
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Friend
everytime i see non-train photos of yours i think, "so much talent. wasted on trains."
crazytiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 09:03 PM   #2
Ween
Senior Member
 
Ween's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,861
Default

EJ&E already is a Class I...it's CN.
__________________
Ween is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 10:47 PM   #3
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Senior Member
 
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marlboro, NJ
Posts: 1,956
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blaszczyk (2) Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Default

Well EJ&E and Pan Am are already included in that. I'm not 100% sure on how the Pan Am Southern deal works but I'm pretty sure its somehow under the NS banner?

I always though the MM&A would continue to grow and eventually hit the Class I mark but apparently business has leveled off some in the last year or so.

LIRR is primarily a passenger railroad so they would never fall into that category.

FEC is large but does not have much room to expand at the moment. CSX and NS are still heavily invested in the container traffic out of Jacksonville which I think would be necessary for FEC to get a share of in order to push it into that bracket.

Iowa Interstate and MRL are two on the list that both continue to do very well but still need that missing piece.

I wouldn't count out the WNY&PA who continues to gain trackage and therefore more customers throughout two states. Give them more of the Buffalo Line and maybe a coal line or two in central PA and they could possibly make it as a Class I.

Do I think any other railroad will ever become a Class I? No. Unless a Class I pulls out of a large market in either intermodal or coal then I do not think it will ever happen. CN continues to gobble up these smaller lines to gain access into the markets that do not have a major player or as competition.

Cool thread though. It is fun to dream!

BR&W as a Class I...Easton, PA to Oak Island (Newark), NJ. Yes please!
__________________
-Andrew Blaszczyk a.k.a. AB(2)
Proud fan of the Sabres, Islanders, Rockies, and Lions.

"My camera is an artistic medium, not a tool of terrorism."

www.ab2photography.com Coming soon!
My photos on RailPictures:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=960
Andrew Blaszczyk (2) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 11:35 PM   #4
jdirelan87
Senior Member
 
jdirelan87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 725
Default

Is this poll asking;

1) which Class II is most likely to increase their revenue enough to be classified as a Class I as defined by the FRA

or

2) which Class II railroad is most likely to be bought by a current Class I.

Clarification please
jdirelan87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2009, 11:38 PM   #5
jdirelan87
Senior Member
 
jdirelan87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 725
Default

[quote=Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
LIRR is primarily a passenger railroad so they would never fall into that category.
[/QUOTE]

The requirements for being a class one make no mention about the exclusion of passenger revenue. Amtrak and VIA are both considered class ones, although this is rarely recognized in practice.
jdirelan87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 12:48 AM   #6
TAMR159
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 367
Default

It's a revenue standard, as John said. Since the FEC is already a finely tuned machine, I would suspect they would be the first ones from the financial standpoint. Some shortlines/regionals have lots of track mileage and not so many customers as compared to the "ideal"...I'm not saying that this is representative of their financial earnings, but it is common among the larger shortlines/class twos (when large is determined by track mileage).
TAMR159 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 01:53 AM   #7
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Senior Member
 
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marlboro, NJ
Posts: 1,956
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blaszczyk (2) Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdirelan87 View Post
The requirements for being a class one make no mention about the exclusion of passenger revenue. Amtrak and VIA are both considered class ones, although this is rarely recognized in practice.
I stand corrected. There are indeed 10 in North America.
__________________
-Andrew Blaszczyk a.k.a. AB(2)
Proud fan of the Sabres, Islanders, Rockies, and Lions.

"My camera is an artistic medium, not a tool of terrorism."

www.ab2photography.com Coming soon!
My photos on RailPictures:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=960

Last edited by Andrew Blaszczyk (2); 08-24-2009 at 01:57 AM.
Andrew Blaszczyk (2) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 02:18 PM   #8
ShortlinesUSA
Senior Member
 
ShortlinesUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 821
Default

My understanding of the poll is which one of these will be taken over by a class 1, not expand and become large enough to achieve class 1 status. That said, I have cast my vote for FEC. Reason: RailAmerica is now owned by Fortress Investment, a hedge fund. They'll likely cash in some chips at some point, and FEC would bring them more than just about any property they have.
__________________
Mike Derrick

Shortline and Regional RR forum moderator
ShortlinesUSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 02:39 PM   #9
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Senior Member
 
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marlboro, NJ
Posts: 1,956
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blaszczyk (2) Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortlinesUSA View Post
My understanding of the poll is which one of these will be taken over by a class 1, not expand and become large enough to achieve class 1 status. That said, I have cast my vote for FEC. Reason: RailAmerica is now owned by Fortress Investment, a hedge fund. They'll likely cash in some chips at some point, and FEC would bring them more than just about any property they have.
I think he means which is the most likely to reach the $250 million mark necessary for Class I status. How or why would LIRR or ARR be taken over.

But I don't see why we can't ignore the poll and discuss both.

I'd have to agree that the FEC would be the next to be bought. Since CSX already has access to southeastern Florida, it would have to be NS to take it over unless CP and CP continue to buy everything in sight.
__________________
-Andrew Blaszczyk a.k.a. AB(2)
Proud fan of the Sabres, Islanders, Rockies, and Lions.

"My camera is an artistic medium, not a tool of terrorism."

www.ab2photography.com Coming soon!
My photos on RailPictures:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=960
Andrew Blaszczyk (2) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 01:50 AM   #10
crazytiger
Senior Member
 
crazytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NS Greenville District
Posts: 1,473
Default

I was meaning "Who would next hit the $250m mark?"

Is EJ&E really CN?

about FEC becoming CP. Thats a hysterical thought.

What about Montana Rail Link? From my limited knowledge on the topic (of them), they seem to be in a position to do it.
__________________
Peter Lewis | Portfolio | Profile | Flickr | Facebook

Canon EOS 40D
Canon EF 50 f/1.8 II
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Friend
everytime i see non-train photos of yours i think, "so much talent. wasted on trains."
crazytiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 02:21 AM   #11
ShortlinesUSA
Senior Member
 
ShortlinesUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 821
Default

EJE became part of CN effective in January 2009. The portion that switches the steel mills was not included in the sale and is now the Gary Railway.
__________________
Mike Derrick

Shortline and Regional RR forum moderator
ShortlinesUSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 03:31 AM   #12
nikos1
Senior Member
 
nikos1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,775
Default

I had my bets on ICE/DME but they became class 1 in the wrong way........
__________________


Wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=7861

More wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's http://nikos1.rrpicturearchives.net/

Video wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's
http://youtube.com/profile?user=nikosjk1
nikos1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 03:38 AM   #13
jdirelan87
Senior Member
 
jdirelan87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazytiger View Post
I was meaning "Who would next hit the $250m mark?"

Is EJ&E really CN?

about FEC becoming CP. Thats a hysterical thought.

What about Montana Rail Link? From my limited knowledge on the topic (of them), they seem to be in a position to do it.
It should be noted that the last few increases to the minimum revenue required to be a Class I have been a result of several large shortlines asking the FRA to raise the bar (or so I have heard, never actually seen any written proof of this). Most shortlines are not interested in the increased fees and paperwork associated with being a Class I. So if Class IIs are activity looking to avoid becoming Class Is, isn't this conversation a moot point?
jdirelan87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 12:05 PM   #14
ShortlinesUSA
Senior Member
 
ShortlinesUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 821
Default

Not to mention that becoming a class 1 would, at least in several states, shut them off to grants and low-interest loans provided to shortline railroads. Either that, or if business is that good, they'll become a class 1 by being bought out.
__________________
Mike Derrick

Shortline and Regional RR forum moderator
ShortlinesUSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 08:07 PM   #15
DME 6361
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 26
Default Why would you want them to transfer to the darkside?

The class II's and other shortlines, regionals are the only real railroads left . Why would you want them to go away just to bring in more reguations,management and mainly scrapping out a lot of the engines, lines and equipment that don't need to be! This is the only piece of American RR we have left and you would rather have it go away?
DME 6361 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 08:49 PM   #16
DME 6361
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 26
Default

I hope you guys know that the DME [350m--FEC over 250m a year proves that the it takes more than that to become a class I--like 500 million. And as for the MRL becoming class I--WHAT???????????: How would that be possible since the BN made the MRL from splitting up the line in 1989 from class I to class II. That would be impossible since they turned it into class II for a reason and a little known fact that the BN still owns them on a 99 year loan! Its called BN being smart with regulations on trains over grades, locals, and 40,000 less a year getting paid to the MRL train crews!
DME 6361 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 09:24 PM   #17
TrainFanNZ
Senior Member
 
TrainFanNZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 88
Send a message via MSN to TrainFanNZ
Default

Well, my vote goes to either the W&LE or the MRL

what about the Utah Railway Co.
__________________
3rd Generation Railfan.
Proud owner of a CANON PowerShot SX20 IS
TrainFanNZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 10:41 PM   #18
Slopes09
Senior Member
 
Slopes09's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Here.
Posts: 837
Send a message via AIM to Slopes09
Default

This question doesn't make much sense. No Class II railroad wants to become a Class I railroad in its own right. As has been stated, that means more regulation, taxes, etc., which would bog down their earnings. I seem to recall in past years, several Class IIs, including (though not necessarily limited to) MRL and FEC technically reached the Class I threshold. Both petitioned the STB to raise the threshold so that they could remain a Class II, and this was granted. Consequently, short of being merged into a larger line, I don't foresee any Class IIs becoming Class Is anytime soon. If DM&E hadn't been bought by CP, they may have stood a chance with the Powder River Basin extension, though that is pure, personal speculation.
__________________
-Mike W.
Railroad Civil Engineer

Pretty much the only Pentax Shooter.

Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Slopes09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 01:31 AM   #19
JRMDC
Senior Member
 
JRMDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slopes09 View Post
If DM&E hadn't been bought by CP, they may have stood a chance with the Powder River Basin extension, though that is pure, personal speculation.
I don't know what the numbers would have looked like, but you can bet if DME would have been on the verge, that BNSF and UP would have been in there to make sure DME became class I so they wouldn't have had the the cost advantage of being a class II. All moot now.
__________________
My RP pix are here.
My Flickr pix are here.

My commentaries on rail pictures are in my blog.

RP Photo Albums:
Cabooses
Engine Details
Farm and Train
Plumes!
Railroad Details
Signal Details
Switchstand Shots
JRMDC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 05:40 PM   #20
crazytiger
Senior Member
 
crazytiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: NS Greenville District
Posts: 1,473
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DME 6361 View Post
I hope you guys know that the DME [350m--FEC over 250m a year proves that the it takes more than that to become a class I--like 500 million.
A Railroad has to be over $250m for three consecutive years. They mus not have met this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DME 6361
And as for the MRL becoming class I--WHAT???????????: How would that be possible since the BN made the MRL from splitting up the line in 1989 from class I to class II. That would be impossible since they turned it into class II for a reason and a little known fact that the BN still owns them on a 99 year loan! Its called BN being smart with regulations on trains over grades, locals, and 40,000 less a year getting paid to the MRL train crews!
Just because the original Intent was being a C2 doesn't mean it would stay being a C2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slopes09
This question doesn't make much sense. No Class II railroad wants to become a Class I railroad in its own right. As has been stated, that means more regulation, taxes, etc., which would bog down their earnings. I seem to recall in past years, several Class IIs, including (though not necessarily limited to) MRL and FEC technically reached the Class I threshold. Both petitioned the STB to raise the threshold so that they could remain a Class II, and this was granted.
True, that's why there is a tenth option on the poll. "None will, the don't want to pay the extra $$$"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShortlinesUSA
Not to mention that becoming a class 1 would, at least in several states, shut them off to grants and low-interest loans provided to shortline railroads. Either that, or if business is that good, they'll become a class 1 by being bought out.
^^^, Same to jdirelan87

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikos1
I had my bets on ICE/DME but they became class 1 in the wrong way........
QFT.
__________________
Peter Lewis | Portfolio | Profile | Flickr | Facebook

Canon EOS 40D
Canon EF 50 f/1.8 II
Canon EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM
Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM


Quote:
Originally Posted by A Friend
everytime i see non-train photos of yours i think, "so much talent. wasted on trains."

Last edited by crazytiger; 08-26-2009 at 05:43 PM.
crazytiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 09:47 PM   #21
chuckman
Senior Member
 
chuckman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 294
Default

I'm not an expert on this but I think the Alaska railroad because with increasing action in Alaska and talk of possible oil drilling, along with the potential to open up new rails as the territory is relatively "new" to the railroad game so to speak. Where as with most others, unless they REALLY increase they're revenue or buy new territory then they have something going for them. However it it won't be The Alaska it'll be FEC!
chuckman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 08:00 AM   #22
ichogger77
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DME 6361 View Post
I hope you guys know that the DME [350m--FEC over 250m a year proves that the it takes more than that to become a class I--like 500 million. And as for the MRL becoming class I--WHAT???????????: How would that be possible since the BN made the MRL from splitting up the line in 1989 from class I to class II. That would be impossible since they turned it into class II for a reason and a little known fact that the BN still owns them on a 99 year loan! Its called BN being smart with regulations on trains over grades, locals, and 40,000 less a year getting paid to the MRL train crews!
not sure where you get your info but its a 59 year lease and it had nothing to do with regulations over grades. The T&E employees on the MRL do not make $40,000 a year less than the BNSF. The MRL boys have a very good contract with the BLE and are almost at national agreement rates. It was a squabble with the state of Montana and the BN over some tax issues and some hard headed upper management with some poor ideas. The BNSF does not own the MRL. Dennis Washington owns the MRL as well as the SRY and use to own the IMRL which you now know as the old IC&E or "the new DM&E"
ichogger77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2009, 08:29 AM   #23
Slopes09
Senior Member
 
Slopes09's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Here.
Posts: 837
Send a message via AIM to Slopes09
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckman View Post
I'm not an expert on this but I think the Alaska railroad because with increasing action in Alaska and talk of possible oil drilling, along with the potential to open up new rails as the territory is relatively "new" to the railroad game so to speak. Where as with most others, unless they REALLY increase they're revenue or buy new territory then they have something going for them. However it it won't be The Alaska it'll be FEC!
I'm not sure how it works exactly, but could the Alaska railroad even become a Class I since it's state owned? Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with their situation. Same with the Long Island Railroad.
__________________
-Mike W.
Railroad Civil Engineer

Pretty much the only Pentax Shooter.

Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Slopes09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.