Old 09-30-2006, 03:13 PM   #1
dsktc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Carlisle, PA
Posts: 268
Default Photography and Security

From the Galveston (Texas) The Daily News:

"GALVESTON — Are law-enforcement officials who patrol refineries and ports going too far in the name of homeland security?

"Some photographers, who complain they’ve been harassed and had their equipment confiscated, say so. But law-enforcement officials say they’re only following federal guidelines in a post-9/11 world.

"The ever-widening debate about from where and at what photographers can aim their cameras illustrates a tug-of-war between constitutional rights and the protection of what officials say are potential terrorist targets."

http://news.galvestondailynews.com/s...c046b30742b38a

Dave
__________________
Dave Kerr
dsktc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2006, 07:37 PM   #2
SD70MACMAN
The man with the plan
 
SD70MACMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 375
Send a message via AIM to SD70MACMAN
Angry grrr

Quote:
They did not obtain a warrant, but confiscated the memory card from his digital camera, according to reports.
WHERE IS THE 4TH AMENEDMENT?!

But as usual, nodoby really knows whats going on. I've always wanted to know these federal guidelines, but I've never been able to find them and nobody knows them. Personally, my Constitutional rights make me feel a lot safer than anti-terrorism laws. The 1st, 4th, and 9th Amendments are great things.

HEHEHE, I wonder if this site has ever been looked at by the gov't.
__________________
~Mike Bjork

UP's new slogan for Amtrak:
"We'll help you spread you wings and fly right into a siding!"

TRAINS TRAINS TRAINS!!! May the fun never end!
I'm a traitor! Im on JP.net! But all my plane shots involve trains!

BN FOREVER!
SD70MACMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2006, 10:39 PM   #3
trainmonster
Senior Member
 
trainmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 378
Default

This s**t really gets me steamed... if some jackboot is gonna try to confiscate my stuff, they'd better be ready to shoot. Over my dead body.

1st thing is ask for a supervisor, next is a lawyer, then right to the newspapers.

Thanks to psychopath Bush & co., the Constitution is becoming a joke.

9/11 my a$$! That was an inside job.

Rich
__________________
"Truck trailers belong on flatcars"
trainmonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2006, 11:19 PM   #4
Studogg120
Senior Member
 
Studogg120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 195
Default

I cant go anywhere near the harbor with a camera without one or two security guards following me around.

It is a load of crap!!!
Studogg120 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2006, 11:48 PM   #5
M.L.Gabert
Senior Member
 
M.L.Gabert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: State of Confusion
Posts: 121
Cool

Don't feel bad guy's I live in BFE Idaho, and I'm constantly harrassed. I also have the "unproud" honor of being on UP's so called homeland security watch list. Yep, trackside terrorist they call me, what a JOKE! UP can KMA!!
M.L.Gabert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2006, 05:25 PM   #6
Pat Lorenz
Senior Member
 
Pat Lorenz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 326
Default

i dont see the big deal, the cops are here to protect, it should be a good thing that they for once care about what we are doing. After all it is a bit suspicious what we do. The more they wonder, the worse it gets. But if they ask and let us explain then they will see for themselves and gain knowlege as to what are hobby is.

I think there is a little bit of reason to get upset as to the manner they confinscate things but i wasnt there so i dont know what kind of attitude the guy was putting off toward the cops and of course the media is going to make him sound as innocent as possible.

Its just that we shouldnt get so pissed off about this. They are called police and security for a reason becuase they are paid to patrol and make sure there are no glitches. This protects the people, the employees and america.

So dont get you panties all in a ruffle.
Pat Lorenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2006, 06:34 PM   #7
busyEMT
Senior Member
 
busyEMT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 902
Default

This discussion will quickly get divided into the pro- and anti-LE camps but as Pat said, we don't know what the tone was on scene.

Consider the area that you are in. If a officer took your film/card when while you are the public library, that likely was over the line or unnecassary. I have made the decision not to go "finding" the boundaries of power (especially nuclear) plants, military installations, and the like. You have the right to go drive around known drug areas of town without a purpose, but if you get pulled over don't cry 'cause the man is trampling your rights.

I suppose you have the choice of putting up enough fuss to go to jail and wait for the warrant so the FBI see your photos or you could get a reciept and wait to get your card back.

And because some lawyer posted a "Photographer's Bill of Rights" on the Internet doesn't make it law of the land.
__________________
Aaron Florin- Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Visit Twin Cities Railfan.com
Visit the Twin Cities Railfan forums.

Don't do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics!
busyEMT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2006, 09:07 PM   #8
trainmonster
Senior Member
 
trainmonster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Central Pa.
Posts: 378
Angry

[quote=Pat Lorenz]
Its just that we shouldnt get so pissed off about this. They are called police and security for a reason becuase they are paid to patrol and make sure there are no glitches. This protects the people, the employees and america.QUOTE]

But... protection at the cost of civil rights and threatened confiscation is the time to get pissed off! Confiscation of artwork (in this example my photos) was last practiced in... let's see... Germany 1939-45 for Goering's personal collection. See what I'm getting at? When my hobby gets outlawed, that's when I leave. Sorry, this police state atmosphere doesn't wash with me... you are one of the sheeple, asleep.

BTW, don't expect to get your card back like busyemt said.

A friend of mine got all worked up over this:

Image © Richard Hart
PhotoID: 154359
Photograph © Richard Hart


saying, "ooooo... posting this kind of stuff is illegal, you might get a knock on the door, yadayadayada." Fine. If they don't want you to see it, cover it up!

Rant over-I'll stop here.

Rich
__________________
"Truck trailers belong on flatcars"
trainmonster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 12:17 AM   #9
Warren
Senior Member
 
Warren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: St. Charles, Missouri
Posts: 287
Send a message via MSN to Warren
Default

Well people do get passionate about their freedom! Thank God too, just imagine where we might be if we didn't.
__________________
Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
Click Here to view my videos at rail-videos.net
My webshots photos
Warren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 12:39 AM   #10
US Airways
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 10
Default

We'd still be one of the countries seen here in red-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:B...mpire_1897.jpg

Does anyone know how rail security stacks up to your friendly aviation counterparts' security?
US Airways is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 01:33 AM   #11
Frederick
Senior Member
 
Frederick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Hastings, Minnesota
Posts: 594
Default

If any sort of law enforcement official would demand to see my card without a search warrant, I would deny them permission. Not only is it my intellectual property, I also have no legal obligation. Simple as that.
__________________
Railpics Photos

Flickr Account
Frederick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 02:34 AM   #12
Pat Lorenz
Senior Member
 
Pat Lorenz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 326
Default

I am not advocating giving up our rights and in no way am i giving up freedom.

But

You have to understand that we live in much different times now, it will never change from 5 years ago to now and beyond. It doesnt matter what you look like (as we have learned from the brits in august) that each individual is capable of anything. Police just have to find out and make sure who you are and what your doing or planning on doing with that subject matter.

I am not saying give up our film and memory card, i am just saying, we should all as photographers understand the times we live in and understand why everything goes down the way it does.

I am not saying you should back down and give up to a cop or security guard because no, thats not the American way. But every week i hear of photographer reports of being questioned, and they are seem to be blown out of proportion. I guess this would piss me off it something of extravagant proportions happened to me in this matter.

But i would understand why, and i dont think i would make fuss about it, which would only make me more suspicious.

Civil rights are good and all, but in these times, 2006, making federal officials obtain all these grants insted of just telling them will make you more suspicious. The last thing you want to do is drag a simple situation out into a month long debate.
Pat Lorenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 04:12 AM   #13
socalrailfan
Master Railfan
 
socalrailfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Riverside, CA
Posts: 714
Default

I guess I'm lucky as I never have any trouble with security or agents, I guess they love me! Seriously though I just pay attention to where I can or cannot go, the scanner helps a lot!
__________________
Thanks,
Dave
www.SoCalRailFan.com
See more of my train photos at:
http://community.webshots.com/user/firehouse16
See my train videos at:
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=SoCalRailFan
socalrailfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 05:01 AM   #14
Wonka001
Senior Member
 
Wonka001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Woods Cross, UT
Posts: 203
Default

I've only been confronted by local law enforcement twice, once because a police man was checking my car out to see if was stolen. Another time (more recently) I parked my truck off the road (near a power substation) and was getting ready to set up for some night time photography.

Turns out I picked the wrong place to park, because during the 2002 Winter Games in Salt Lake City, That specific substation was targeted by some nut job.

All the officer did was ask what I was doing, then checked out my licence plate and driver license to make sure I had a clear record. Good thing I'm not a terrorist, or I would have been shipped off to Guantanmo bay to take pictures of the railroading there. (if I was lucky enough to keep my camera).
Other than that, I haven't had any problems with local law enforcement for taking pictures.

They do have an undaunting task of keeping the people safe and keeping themselves alive in the process, you have to give them credit for that, everytime I meet up with a local law enforcement officer, I thank them for the job well done (even if I am being cited for speeding or anything else like that). It's nice to know that on the local level they try to care about our well being if we aren't causing problems.
__________________
Out of 93 pictures in one night I submit three, get one in, and forget about the rest..

Here is a show of my work here on RPN

Another place to look at pictures if there is more to photography than railroading http://www.picpublisher.com/referral/William_Grow
Wonka001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 05:46 AM   #15
Pat Lorenz
Senior Member
 
Pat Lorenz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 326
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonka001
They do have an undaunting task of keeping the people safe and keeping themselves alive in the process
I'll seconed that, no doubt, so they ask you a couple questions, its there job, no need to be a dick about it. Give them a break, the police on federal and local levels has alot on there plate right now, and it doesnt look like it will slow down.
Pat Lorenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 06:33 AM   #16
Ru1056
Senior Member
 
Ru1056's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Indianapolis IN
Posts: 438
Send a message via Yahoo to Ru1056
Default

Quote:
However, Cernak conceded that Janecke was not on port property, but on premises belonging to Burlington Northern Santa Fe Railroad.
I wonder if having a BNSF Foamer force anti-terrorism suspicous activity reporting card would have helped him?
__________________
Billy

JREB.ORG. Moderated discussion forums about NS & CSX

Remember the ugly photo god.
Ru1056 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 06:19 PM   #17
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Senior Member
 
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marlboro, NJ
Posts: 1,956
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blaszczyk (2) Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Lorenz
You have to understand that we live in much different times now, it will never change from 5 years ago to now and beyond.
I disagree. Unfortunately, this country (and world) is so paranoid that a big deal is made about every little thing that is SLIGHTLY out different from the 'norm'. Who the heck makes up this norm anyway. You're telling me that it would have been okay for photographers to be treated differently or wrongly in 1946 (do the math)? No, of course not because people back then KNEW and UNDERSTOOD who they had to be weary about. Sadly, everything today has to be politically correct. :-/

Quote:
I am not saying give up our film and memory card, i am just saying, we should all as photographers understand the times we live in and understand why everything goes down the way it does.
I don't understand why photographers from this country get hassled unless they are trespassing. If there is no sign that says "public not allowed", I don't feel (and legally know) that there is no case against being there.

Quote:
Civil rights are good and all, but in these times, 2006, making federal officials obtain all these grants insted of just telling them will make you more suspicious. The last thing you want to do is drag a simple situation out into a month long debate.
People including the "law enforcement" need be educated and straightened out about what is legal and illegal "in these times". Nothing has changed but the people themselves. One reason I wish I could go back to the 1920s-1940s to photograph!
__________________
-Andrew Blaszczyk a.k.a. AB(2)
Proud fan of the Sabres, Islanders, Rockies, and Lions.

"My camera is an artistic medium, not a tool of terrorism."

www.ab2photography.com Coming soon!
My photos on RailPictures:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=960
Andrew Blaszczyk (2) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 07:24 PM   #18
Pat Lorenz
Senior Member
 
Pat Lorenz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 326
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew B
People including the "law enforcement" need be educated and straightened out about what is legal and illegal "in these times".
Yes, but unfortunetly 'us' photographers are the only ones who can do that right now. Reason being is nobody but 'us' photographers cares about it. The only way to educate the police as to what we do in our hobby is safe and harmless, is to show them on site. Show them and tell them our hobby, not put up a big fuss and raise even more suspicion. If we treat them with respect, they will do the same and there will be no need to confinscate anything.
Pat Lorenz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 07:50 PM   #19
Drewster
Senior Member
 
Drewster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 147
Default

I remember i was taking a photo of amtrak zepher going by near the bay area, and a rent a cop pulled over and got out and told us we cant be taking photos of the oil refineries, since our cameras were facing that direction, and told us to put our cameras away and asked out info. OK? i'm sure a Million of people have photos of the stupid refinery in the backround of their photos, or even just photos of it, if we didnt want to get caught, why would be be taking photos of it out in the open in public? it's like saying, you cant take a photo of the train, because it has the sky in the backround
Drewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 08:17 PM   #20
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Senior Member
 
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marlboro, NJ
Posts: 1,956
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blaszczyk (2) Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Lorenz
If we treat them with respect, they will do the same and there will be no need to confinscate anything.
Most of the time this is true but there are those "hardcore" cops that believe what they THINK is the law IS the law. I'm to the point where I wish more people would cause a fuss about being asked for all kinds of information and being told what they are doing is wrong. Like you said, 'we'(photographers) are the only ones that see this problem and if it was more public I'm sure we would get some support as well as some morons who are against it for "saftey reason". I agree though that if the cop or whomever is doing the questioning is polite to be polite back, but seriously how often does that happen, when :gasp: National security is in jeopardy? ::rolls eyes::
__________________
-Andrew Blaszczyk a.k.a. AB(2)
Proud fan of the Sabres, Islanders, Rockies, and Lions.

"My camera is an artistic medium, not a tool of terrorism."

www.ab2photography.com Coming soon!
My photos on RailPictures:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=960

Last edited by Andrew Blaszczyk (2); 10-03-2006 at 08:23 PM.
Andrew Blaszczyk (2) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 08:27 PM   #21
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Senior Member
 
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Marlboro, NJ
Posts: 1,956
Send a message via AIM to Andrew Blaszczyk (2) Send a message via Yahoo to Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drewster
I remember i was taking a photo of amtrak zepher going by near the bay area, and a rent a cop pulled over and got out and told us we cant be taking photos of the oil refineries, since our cameras were facing that direction, and told us to put our cameras away and asked out info. OK? i'm sure a Million of people have photos of the stupid refinery in the backround of their photos, or even just photos of it, if we didnt want to get caught, why would be be taking photos of it out in the open in public? it's like saying, you cant take a photo of the train, because it has the sky in the backround
Its about the equipment "we" use, too. If we all went with a buddy and used a point-and-shoot and looked as if we were just taking photos for fun there would rarely be a problem unless trespassing. But, once we do something out of the ordinary (to them) "we" are doing something wrong!

Solution #647 - All photographers buy "Homeland Security" jackets and hats. I'm sure people would seriously feel safer seeing that because thats how bad society has gotten today.
__________________
-Andrew Blaszczyk a.k.a. AB(2)
Proud fan of the Sabres, Islanders, Rockies, and Lions.

"My camera is an artistic medium, not a tool of terrorism."

www.ab2photography.com Coming soon!
My photos on RailPictures:
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=960
Andrew Blaszczyk (2) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2006, 09:50 PM   #22
jdirelan87
Senior Member
 
jdirelan87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Metro DC
Posts: 725
Default

Having a military ID helps out alot during these situations, as well as getting out of speeding tickets! Thats the real reason I'm working to become an officer.
jdirelan87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2006, 12:10 AM   #23
SD70MACMAN
The man with the plan
 
SD70MACMAN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonds, Washington
Posts: 375
Send a message via AIM to SD70MACMAN
Default

What happened in the article above was a CLEAR violation of the 4th Amendment. And hopefully as you may remember from civics class, the laws of the Constitution cannot be overriden by any law except an Amendment, approved by Congress. The last Amendment was in 1992.

This arguement we get into always astonishes me, so trying to take a moderate stance and using a little logic (please read through before ripping):

After Sept 11th, we "live in different times" according to our government (and some people on this thread). The purpose of 9/11 was to disrupt the American way of life; our normal lives, according to our government, President Bush, and bin Laden. And now 9/11 changes everything we do and how we think (ie the purpose of this thread, discussing photographic rights after 9/11). Am I correct?

So, add this all together: We can all agree that Septmeber 11th "changed everything" (or "we live in different times", take your pick), and thats exactly what they wanted, to "change everything". And, very sadly, that has been accomplished, for the time being.

We have to be careful NOT to let our civil liberties go. Thats why America is so great, we have civil liberties that our enemies do not have. More importatnly, we have civil liberties the terrorists do not have. We have the rights of speech, religion, property, due process, to not have our stuff taken from us by the gov't w/o a warrent, etc. They dont. Its truly un-American to give up those rights. Remember, one of the things that the terrorists hate is our freedoms (said by Pres. Bush)? To show strength to those a-holes we need to keep our freedoms and rights and fight like hell. And at least we're trying to give the Iraqies them a taste of our wonderful freedoms!

The best way to be safe after 9/11 is to REMEMBER September 11th, what it has taught us, and try and contiune as business as usual; showing strength and unity. This country has become too damn divided between left and right. Between the politicians and pundits, NOBODY is helping! Dems and Repubs are BOTH guilty as hell and you know it. The terrorists want us to be bickering and pointing fingers at each other, while they get away with more crap. We need to unite as one nation, especally in this time of trouble for the USA. The closer we unite and stand as one, w/o giving up our pre-9/11 rights (which is possible), the more we defeat terrorism and the safer we become.

Remember, if we stay divided, nothing will happen. If we unite, we can accomplish great things.

A good point was brought up. One problem facing law enforcement is education of our hobby. All these problems would go away if they knew what we were doing. The best part is that it would free their time to actually find people that are doing bad things, whether they be terrorists or criminals. Props to BNSF for TRYING to enlist the help of railfans as "police", as we're some of the few people outside of the business that know what looks right and what looks wrong (hell, some of us know better than the employees!). Also, NOBODY seems to know any of the offical laws and rules, and its a pain to find them. Maybe if someone told us the laws... Education: it's a win-win for everyone!

Id try and educate cops on the field, but at that time they usually have their heads so far up their...well, you get the point. I've tried 3 times, never even been close to working. Usually the responce to "what are you doing?", "taking pictures of trains" is the deal breaker. I've never caused problems w/ the police and I dont want to, but they seem to like to tell me to move even if im well within the legal zone.

And no, I "dont know how things go down." Nobody seems to want to say anything. Frankly, if my stuff is going to be taken from me, I dont care what time I live in, I want to see a) a reason and b) a warrent. The law says I have a RIGHT to these. If my stuff gets taken from me w/o those two things, Im going to raise as much hell as possible.

Yay, a legal gray zone, where this nation seems to be, and has been for the last 5+ years on may issues.

Solution #648 - Cause as few problems as possible when confronted by real cops, and try to educate them of our hobby and enourage them to spread the word to their co-workers.

Solution #649 - Write you local paper, police department, or Congressman and try to encourage education on railfanning.

Solution #650 - Maybe OLS can give us a hand as we give them plenty of help, write to them.

Solution #651 - Pressure the railroads to give their rent-a-cops and employees PROPER education on railfans. We're not all drunken idiots.

Solution #652 - Not related to trains, but do some volunteer work. Its rewarding!

Do something, don't just wave your little American flag.
__________________
~Mike Bjork

UP's new slogan for Amtrak:
"We'll help you spread you wings and fly right into a siding!"

TRAINS TRAINS TRAINS!!! May the fun never end!
I'm a traitor! Im on JP.net! But all my plane shots involve trains!

BN FOREVER!
SD70MACMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2006, 01:08 AM   #24
Callufrax
?
 
Callufrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Nth. Strathfield, Main Northern, CityRail - Sydney, NSW, Australia
Posts: 255
Default

Well put! I couldn't have put it any better myself.

Though, does a visitor to the States have the same freedoms under the Constitution, and its amendments, as a US citizen and resident?
Callufrax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2006, 01:15 AM   #25
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,899
Default

They do today. Can't say how it might be next week or next month though.


Joe
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.