Old 02-13-2009, 05:02 AM   #1
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Default I'm just curious.

I don't vent very often, and have done nothing more than defend this site and it's standards, but I don't understand the premise of rejecting an image for PEQ just because of an open nose door.

Your appeal for photo id 643916 has been processed and has been rejected.
Admin Comments >> The open nose door here doesn\'t do this fairly standard shot
any favors Wayne.
>> http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=643916&key=0

Okay fairly standard yes, but it's how I compose my shots most of the time.

Several pictures with open doors come to mind.

Image © Geoff Brozny
PhotoID: 230552
Photograph © Geoff Brozny


Image © Jonathan McCoy
PhotoID: 243739
Photograph © Jonathan McCoy


Image © HTTR
PhotoID: 219080
Photograph © HTTR


Even one of my own.

Image © Wayne Stumbo
PhotoID: 242368
Photograph © Wayne Stumbo
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:28 AM   #2
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Hmmmmmm, tough one. It's nicely composed, there's some interest on the right hand side. But, being that you zoomed in Wayne, I think the door does distract a bit. It's not horrible at all, and like I said I like that composition, but the zoom in on the front with the door open is SLIGHTLY distracting. PS-I'm not expert on open doors, I like em, that's my extent of knowledge of them.

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Old 02-13-2009, 09:52 AM   #3
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On wide nose's I wont shoot them with the door open, it just bugs me. kind of like having your fly open.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:32 PM   #4
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I like the composition with the cars in the background.

Having an open door has never been a big deal to me, just part of railroading.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:33 PM   #5
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I've had this conversation with Mr. Kilroy a few times now (as he will gladly attest to). What bugs me is it seems to be an "absolute" rule, rather than put into context - for example, the door open for a crew change, or better yet, a Canadian unit (lacking air conditioning) making it's way through the USA in the summer time. That or if it's an otherwise pleasing shot of some extremely rare power (tried that one and failed miserably...but I wasn't about to climb on and shut a door on a locomotive, never mind the fact that it was next to a chemical plant and across the street from a local police hangout). I will claim effort for the one below, however:

Image ©
PhotoID:
Photograph ©


All in all though, I think the rule is a load of crap. There are so many units running around with their front door open that it is, quite honestly, commonplace in railroading nowadays. I don't think rejecting every single shot where the nose door is open is the answer - though perhaps being a bit more picky about the ones they accept (looking for a bit of creativity with said open door) might be a good way to go, as opposed to a mindless "telewedgie" with the front door flapping in the breeze.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:50 PM   #6
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There are no "absolute" rules, as with as many photos as there are in the database, it's possible to find an exception for everything. However, the standards seem to be slowly ratcheting up. I'm not opposed to higher standards, and I've even been caught in this with a few rejections of my own.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:12 PM   #7
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I think the issue to note here with the original shot in question is the fact that there is so much focus on the nose. In many cases, the open door problem can be avoided by shooting wide-angles, with the nose making up very little of the shot:

Image © Carl Becker
PhotoID: 259790
Photograph © Carl Becker


To date, I have not had any issues with the "open door" policy. The best thing to do when there is an open door is try to take all the focus away from it.

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Old 02-13-2009, 01:59 PM   #8
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On standard cabs it's ok I think,but a open nose door leaves a gap in the herald on most paint jobs and thats the part i don't care for. I see this more and more that crew will open the outside door if there is fans following the train, There is an inside door too.
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:48 PM   #9
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I think if your shot was of a moving train with light and all it would be in the database. Just a group of sitting locomotives just isn't enough.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:22 PM   #10
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Is Mike B. a screener here now? Next up: no more passenger shots or shots with cameras that have been stored on their sides. Hope the open door policy doesn't bleed over to open window shots...

EDIT: FWIW, I find overly processed, fake-looking shots FAR more distracting that a nose door being open...
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween View Post
EDIT: FWIW, I find overly processed, fake-looking shots FAR more distracting that a nose door being open...
Words of wisdom
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Old 02-13-2009, 05:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween View Post
Is Mike B. a screener here now?
No, not every shot is rejected. And when you do get a rejection the reason isn't "you're an idiot" or "terrible shot, sell your camera".
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Old 02-13-2009, 06:15 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lock4244 View Post
No, not every shot is rejected. And when you do get a rejection the reason isn't "you're an idiot" or "terrible shot, sell your camera".
I have seen some photos that could use those rejection reasons.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:14 PM   #14
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I feel the same way, the door open to me isn't a big deal. Sometimes (and yes, on widecabs its more of an annoyance) its actually more interesting to see, because the only thing I believe that needs to be right in a shot is a:your composition, and b: the lighting. Obviously sharpness and exposure, but I think when you start rejecting things for a door being open, you might as well throw out the mismatched numberboard shots, shots with MU hoses hanging out, and windows not being clean.

I mean, seriously, we are out here to photograph railroading arent we? Thats what Wayne did, and even though its not the best shot in the world, its not anything to complain about. I think the whole photography aspect is playing more and more into this whole thing, everything needs to be fine tuned now, even if its part of railroading.

In summary, I believe its a ridiculous rule, but Im not telling Chris or anyone how to run their site.

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Old 02-14-2009, 02:31 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travsirocz View Post
I think if your shot was of a moving train with light and all it would be in the database. Just a group of sitting locomotives just isn't enough.
It wasn't light power it was an intermodal train, it had 5 engines and the first stack was around a curve so its hard to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
I like the composition with the cars in the background.
Thanks J.
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by milwman View Post
On standard cabs it's ok I think,but a open nose door leaves a gap in the herald on most paint jobs and thats the part i don't care for. I see this more and more that crew will open the outside door if there is fans following the train, There is an inside door too.
I'll be guilty on one count maybe more if more foamers start to chase my train with a colourful consist...
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Old 02-14-2009, 02:45 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAMR159 View Post
All in all though, I think the rule is a load of crap. There are so many units running around with their front door open that it is, quite honestly, commonplace in railroading nowadays. I don't think rejecting every single shot where the nose door is open is the answer - though perhaps being a bit more picky about the ones they accept (looking for a bit of creativity with said open door) might be a good way to go, as opposed to a mindless "telewedgie" with the front door flapping in the breeze.
I agree with you, I don't really understand why they have this in place when at one point there was no problem. What is a mindless telewedgie? btw


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ween
Is Mike B. a screener here now? Next up: no more passenger shots or shots with cameras that have been stored on their sides. Hope the open door policy doesn't bleed over to open window shots...
Maybe no more NS Dash-9's.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WisconsinCentral
I feel the same way, the door open to me isn't a big deal. Sometimes (and yes, on widecabs its more of an annoyance) its actually more interesting to see, because the only thing I believe that needs to be right in a shot is a:your composition, and b: the lighting. Obviously sharpness and exposure, but I think when you start rejecting things for a door being open, you might as well throw out the mismatched numberboard shots, shots with MU hoses hanging out, and windows not being clean.

I mean, seriously, we are out here to photograph railroading arent we? Thats what Wayne did, and even though its not the best shot in the world, its not anything to complain about. I think the whole photography aspect is playing more and more into this whole thing, everything needs to be fine tuned now, even if its part of railroading.

In summary, I believe its a ridiculous rule, but Im not telling Chris or anyone how to run their site.

Alec
I agree, and well said it's their site and they can run it how they see fit, but I don't think a door being open really makes that big of a difference on what makes a picture. Especially the use of the bad motive reject, it is not photographer error like say composition, lighting, processing etc. It is part of the train itself that we are shooting.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:11 AM   #18
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Who cares if the door is open? I agree with what most of the others said here; there are far more important things to worry about. I don't see why open doors are a problem when this site accepts cloudy shots of foreign or rare engines (luckily I haven't seen many of these lately), incredibly plain and boring wedge shots, and, worst of all, fake overprocessed shadow/highlight photos.

It would be one thing if the photo in question was a boring 3/4 wedge shot and the door cast a shadow over the length of the nose, but it's not. It's a well composed telephoto shot and there is no shadow on the nose of the engine.
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:52 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAMR159 View Post
I've had this conversation with Mr. Kilroy a few times now (as he will gladly attest to). What bugs me is it seems to be an "absolute" rule, rather than put into context - for example, the door open for a crew change, or better yet, a Canadian unit (lacking air conditioning) making it's way through the USA in the summer time. That or if it's an otherwise pleasing shot of some extremely rare power (tried that one and failed miserably...but I wasn't about to climb on and shut a door on a locomotive, never mind the fact that it was next to a chemical plant and across the street from a local police hangout). I will claim effort for the one below, however:

Image ©
PhotoID:
Photograph ©


All in all though, I think the rule is a load of crap. There are so many units running around with their front door open that it is, quite honestly, commonplace in railroading nowadays. I don't think rejecting every single shot where the nose door is open is the answer - though perhaps being a bit more picky about the ones they accept (looking for a bit of creativity with said open door) might be a good way to go, as opposed to a mindless "telewedgie" with the front door flapping in the breeze.
Just to clear the air, Nick closed that door with permission.
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Old 02-15-2009, 01:33 AM   #20
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Wayne,

As was already stated, if you had included the crew change in the frame I think this one would have been accepted and, more importantly, would have been a much more interesting photo.
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Old 02-15-2009, 01:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
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I have seen some photos that could use those rejection reasons.
This shot comes to mind.



As Mr. Kilroy stated:

Quote:
Why are the screeners on this site out to get me?????
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:47 AM   #22
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ah yeah, the Baldwin Shark..

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Old 02-15-2009, 11:42 AM   #23
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Wayne,

As was already stated, if you had included the crew change in the frame I think this one would have been accepted and, more importantly, would have been a much more interesting photo.
Chris, I respect RP's right to set its own standards, so while I disagree with the aversion to open doors hey it is your site, but the shot is already "much more interesting" than a significant fraction of shots on the site, simply by being more than a wedgie, by having a nice shallow DoF effect with the cars in the background, by having a bit of interesting trackwork, by simply having a bridge also, etc. It is not just "fairly standard" to quote the appeal screener.
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:22 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC View Post
Chris, I respect RP's right to set its own standards, so while I disagree with the aversion to open doors hey it is your site, but the shot is already "much more interesting" than a significant fraction of shots on the site, simply by being more than a wedgie, by having a nice shallow DoF effect with the cars in the background, by having a bit of interesting trackwork, by simply having a bridge also, etc. It is not just "fairly standard" to quote the appeal screener.
I tried to just lurk in this one, but what you said J completely sums up what I was thinking. Adding to it, the door open adds a bit of character, it's not just a train tied down, crewless and boring. It brings a bit of life to the photo, it's not just a standard telesmash-wedgie shot. The Catfish/Unibrow scheme NS has is VERY bleak and boring, with this door open it breaks it up.

Back to what Chris S said, about if he had got a crew. Well, what if there was no crew called for, say, 5 hours? I know I have sat next to a train, waiting for it to leave for 6 hours, and then I ran out of daylight (ends up it went out the next day while I was on Amtrak going to Los Angeles.)

Personally (I'm not saying how to run the site, just stating my honest opinion), that if the shot is well lit, well composed and is interesting (which this shot in question IS), then why should it be restricted from the database? If the door open restrict it, then we should reject photos with the headlights off, or, of the ditchlights alternating, both of which are EQUALLY distracting! Gah, nothing bugs ME more than a train running around with a headlight on dim, or, even better, completely off! I have a shot in the DB where the engineer purposely turned his headlights off when he went by, he's anti-railfan. He always gets up out of the seat so he won't be photographed. Just last week I was shooting his train (one of my favorite trains to shoot, just look at my shots, it's pretty easy to see which one), he gave me the finger! To his surprise I was waiting for him to come north with a GP30 leading, I didn't get a shot of it, because I was making a horrible disgusting mental image in his mind! I bet he'll never turn his headlights off after he saw my rearend.

Just my $.02, back to my rock I go.
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Old 02-15-2009, 02:47 PM   #25
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Quote:
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... I bet he'll never turn his headlights off after he saw my rearend.

Just my $.02, back to my rock I go.
Well, there's my cue.

I have wondered long hours about whether to post this shot; I actually submitted it but then withdrew it 'cause I didn't know if I would get booted. So take your choice:

1. Enjoy!
2. Cringe!
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