Old 01-31-2008, 04:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JimThias
The screeners are human...they DO make mistakes like the rest of us, ya know. Sometimes they just have to be reminded.
Yes, but again, who's place is it to say that the screener made a mistake? We have no idea of how many of the screeners may have looked at this photo.

Starnes visits the forums regularly, and he's said nothing about this, so in absence of contradicting theory, it would seem that he backs the screener's judgement.

Yes, they do make mistakes, but I cannot necessarily say that this is a mistake as I don't know what the screener was thinking when he gave it the nod. It's not different than one of us thinking they make a mistake when they reject a photo of ours.

Again, the photo does nothing for me personally, but I don't see what this one photo does out of the near 200,000 images hosted here to detract from the site. There are plenty of 3/4 wedgies that make my head numb that should have been rejected far before this photo.
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Old 01-31-2008, 05:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by hoydie17
Yes, but again, who's place is it to say that the screener made a mistake?
Well, I am, for one. This photo is quite possibly the most unlevel photo ever accepted to the database. Over 7 degrees CCW has got to be close to some kind of record. And if they are going to nitpick over .5 and under like they commonly do, this one NEVER should have gotten by the screener(s). That's what I have problem with. So, yes...screener error definitely comes into play. Like I said, they are human and make mistakes like the rest of us. I like the photo, it's just grossly unlevel.

They critique our submissions. Is it so wrong to critique their decisions?

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Old 01-31-2008, 05:41 PM   #28
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Please explain the difference, in terms of any measure of morality or appropriate social behavior, or something, between the two.
Morality? We are still talking about train pictures on a web site, right?

Any objective observer of this particular forum will note that the level of righteous indignation on this forum. First it is 'why didn't my picture get accpted!' which can usually be answered with 'because it sucks' which almost never happens, because the forum members are too polite for that.

But now we have a new twist, which I have seen a few times before, is the 'what were they thinking' thread, which smacks more of sour grapes than anything else, personally. I think the answer to that is 'because it is their website' which has been the answer to a lot of questions about this place.

As for this particular picture- whatever. It is nice enough. It has some train, and if you can read you can find out where and under which circumstances it was taken. I would say accept more like it, because I would love to see anything water down the steady stream of 3/4 wedge shots in mediocre light of, oh, I dunno, a C44-9w.

These threads where people question what is on the site make me think 'what a baby' because it just seems like sour grapes. As for a screener making mistakes, um, yea, no kidding. But should a picture be taken down because a few on the forum don't like it?

No. Whether we agree with the screeners or not, we ain't them, and we should have no say in the content of this site.

And for those that so vehemently disagree with this picture, what are you afraid of? Watering down the content or something? Does that picture somehow effect how people would view yours? I just don't understand why anyone cares about this particular picture.
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Old 01-31-2008, 05:55 PM   #29
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Morality? We are still talking about train pictures on a web site, right?
Exactly. So I found it a bit, well, call it puzzling, that you came into the thread and got a bit righteous yourself. We, most or all of us regulars on this forum, are conversing about something we care about. This site.

Quote:
Any objective observer of this particular forum will note that the level of righteous indignation on this forum. First it is 'why didn't my picture get accpted!' which can usually be answered with 'because it sucks' which almost never happens, because the forum members are too polite for that.
Obviously you do not read the forums much.

Actually, a correction. We are (somewhat) polite, not all of the time, but more importantly we are much, much more helpful than to just say 'because it sucks.' We prefer helpful answers, you apparently do not.

Quote:
But now we have a new twist, which I have seen a few times before, is the 'what were they thinking' thread, which smacks more of sour grapes than anything else, personally. I think the answer to that is 'because it is their website' which has been the answer to a lot of questions about this place.
No sour grapes, I have no desire to have been the first to submit such a shot. I doubt anyone else in this thread has that desire either. And "their website" IS a good answer to lots of questions here.

Quote:
As for this particular picture- whatever. It is nice enough. It has some train, and if you can read you can find out where and under which circumstances it was taken. I would say accept more like it, because I would love to see anything water down the steady stream of 3/4 wedge shots in mediocre light of, oh, I dunno, a C44-9w.
And you are welcome to that opinion! One you share with Sean to some extent. Feel free to express it. No one here is suppressing opposite views.

Quote:
These threads where people question what is on the site make me think 'what a baby' because it just seems like sour grapes.
I just don't understand this "sour grapes" argument. Who is expressing such feelings? Who wished it had been them to have been first with such a picture?

Quote:
As for a screener making mistakes, um, yea, no kidding. But should a picture be taken down because a few on the forum don't like it?
I agree.

Quote:
No. Whether we agree with the screeners or not, we ain't them, and we should have no say in the content of this site.
Say, no. Express an opinion as to what the site should and should not try to do, yes. We are the customers.

Quote:
And for those that so vehemently disagree with this picture, what are you afraid of? Watering down the content or something? Does that picture somehow effect how people would view yours? I just don't understand why anyone cares about this particular picture.
Watering down may not be the best way to put it, but there is some of that. It is simply expressing preferences as to what sorts of shots are accepted. Something about which we may all vary in opinion (for me, for example, 90% of the night streaked-headlight shots are of no interest whatsoever).

Several of us on this thread (apparently, and certainly for me) do not want shots of general landscapes taken from within a rail vehicle to be acceptable fare for RP. And others have said they have no problem with it. What is wrong with that discussion?

What is wrong with expressing, and yes, doing so vehemently, one's opinions of what should and should not be accepted on RP? If you say anything in response, please answer that one question.
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:11 PM   #30
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Don't really know what your getting on when you say 'sour grapes.' I honestly could care less about what other people upload, be it power wedgies or roster shots.

But what does bug me is screener inconsistency. As everyone knows, I am obviously in favor of the screening methods here and I also understand that photography is not an exact science, thus there can be no clear cut set 'standards.'

However, there some general abstracts that should be defined among the screeners. To some extend there are (i.e., soft, poor image quality, etc.). It drives me nuts to see pictures of obviously railroad related scenes rejected for motive and then see this get accepted. There is nothing in this shot that tells me its a train.

As for the 'well read the description' argument. Well I have a nice shot of some butterflies sitting on a flower in an old yard. I also have a nice shot of a bird sitting on an old pole line. So your saying all I've had to do was say that the railroad is in the shot, just take my word for it?

Consistency people.
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:28 PM   #31
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Well, I am, for one. This photo is quite possibly the most unlevel photo ever accepted to the database. Over 7 degrees CCW has got to be close to some kind of record. And if they are going to nitpick over .5 and under like they commonly do, this one NEVER should have gotten by the screener(s). That's what I have problem with. So, yes...screener error definitely comes into play. Like I said, they are human and make mistakes like the rest of us. I like the photo, it's just grossly unlevel.
But Jim, my point in the discussion isn't about the "technical" aspect of the photo. Look back up, you'll see that I generally agree with the overall observation that the image is unlevel. And I can acknowledge that it's PROBABLY a mistake to have accepted the image IF technical attributes were ALL that mattered.

Then again, I'm not sure what the screener was thinking when he accepted it, maybe he enjoyed the rather unique perspective. Hell, maybe he was just taking a long draw from a crack-pipe? It would not be the FIRST time mistakes like this have been made and they seldomly get corrected unless in the event of duplicate shots. No matter how many threads get posted about it.

My argument is more on the actual content of the image, so what, he's taken a photo from a train of a couple of mountains. That's not any different than the photos that have been highlighted previously, except that those photos went with the more conventional shot out of a side door looking at the head-end of their train's locomotives. But it seems because this one breaks "conventional" logic, it doesn't fit on RP.net. I'd be very cautious with that line of thinking, that's how one pigeonholes their own creativity.

One of the biggest complaints on these forums is often the idea that people wish they'd accept more creative, out of the box type images. Well, here is one and now we're examining the decision with the intensity of nuclear physicists on the Manhattan Project because it "doesn't fit" what our minds have been conditioned to.

So it's a glass half full/half empty deal, yes, I agree it's unlevel and it should be or should have been corrected, but I do not agree that it should be rejected simply because you cannot see enough of the train.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimThias
They critique our submissions. Is it so wrong to critique their decisions?
They critique them because we ask them to, whether directly by posting them on these forums, or indirectly by asking to post it to their site if they like it.

They do not ask us for our opinions on their decisions because they don't have to, nevertheless, it does not stop us from expressing our opinions. So, nope, nothing wrong with critiques on their efforts. Though it maybe a bit condescending.
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:34 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by hoydie17
One of the biggest complaints on these forums is often the idea that people wish they'd accept more creative, out of the box type images. Well, here is one and now we're examining the decision with the intensity of nuclear physicists on the Manhattan Project because it "doesn't fit" what our minds have been conditioned to.
There is a fine line between being creative and bad. Ironically, in the context that this photo was taken, it is extremely uncreative and unoriginal. How many people across America do you think have the exact same image of the mountains from the Mount Washington Cog Railway? Probably in the thousands.

And once again, its the consistence (lack there of) that started this thread, not the merit of the photograph.
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:42 PM   #33
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I've had better rejected. How could anyone miss that unlevel horizon? Must be politics...
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:48 PM   #34
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Consistency people.
And I agree 100% with this, which causes me a great deal of confusion, because I think that the consistency between the screeners is lacking in many cases.

Sometimes it seems a photo gets accepted regardless of it's lack in technical attributes simply because it's "newsworthy", like the CNW SD70ACe way back when. However that same photo uploaded today, backlit and all would be rejected in a heartbeat. So that begs the question; does RP.net advertise being the BEST railroad photos on the 'net, or the most NEWSWORTHY railroad photos on the 'net?

For example, I uploaded this image about 2 1/2 years ago, and it was rejected for being blurry/soft. Upheld the rejection on the appeal. So I moved on, no big deal. (It was handheld at 300mm focal range, near depth of field is blurry if you look at the rails.)

Image ©
PhotoID:
Photograph ©


A few months later, I was sitting around bored out of my mind and I decided to upload the photo again just to see what would happen. I made absolutely no changes to the image from the first time I'd sent it up, and imagine that, it was accepted without a second thought.

The image in question from the cog railway here does make me wonder, but it's not my place to tell the screener's they're wrong.
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:04 PM   #35
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And I agree 100% with this, which causes me a great deal of confusion, because I think that the consistency between the screeners is lacking in many cases.
Well, I'll disagree with you, and maybe with John as well, because we are talking about different degrees of consistency, if not different kinds.

Your example deals with what I will call technical consistency, which basically covers most reasons for rejection but excludes bad motive and maybe a few others. The screeners are not as consistent as I would like regarding sharpness, level horizon, etc. I view that as primarily being a case of a) human fallibility, and b) the screeners allowing more latitude across shots, if other aspects of the shot warrant, than I might prefer. I let all that ride, myself. Occasionally I get in my complaint, voice my opinion, but always let it go. Actually, I think the site is pretty good and some tend to focus on the few errors or disagreements and not the many, many consistent evaluations.

The issue here is not technical, however, it is content, it is the range of photography that is acceptable. So I am disagreeing with John a bit, to me the issue is not consistency, it is broader, it is whether a new category of acceptable shots has been adopted. Is "views from a train window" a new category, adding to roster shots, head-ons, wedgies, scenics, and, yes, switchstands?

Well, actually it is also technical. Even if RP is going to accept such pictures, I sure would prefer that they either a) make sure they are level, or b) accept intentionally tilted shots for creative purposes. Like this one (which should not be accepted, but is the only tilted shot I have ready access to!)
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeozmw2/s...rkmd121105.jpg
If they are doing so, then by all means, let the screeners look at shots like mine or like the accepted shot and draw their judgment as to whether the shot makes the grade.
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:22 PM   #36
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So that begs the question; does RP.net advertise being the BEST railroad photos on the 'net, or the most NEWSWORTHY railroad photos on the 'net?
There is no question to beg because it doesn't matter. It makes no difference what the quality is on the site because the moniker of 'BEST railroad photos on the 'net' is just an advertising tool. Who wouldn't promote their product as being 'the best'? Would you expect to see a car company advertise their vehicles as 'pretty decent cars' or 'the BEST cars on the road'?

Don't get tripped up and focus on the literal in an advertising slogan...
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by JRMDC
We, most or all of us regulars on this forum...
Sorry, I didn't realize it was a closed club. I am wondering why you even mentioned this aspect of the conversation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Obviously you do not read the forums much.
Oh please. How many posts are there where people get bent out of shape because their photo does not get accepted. I bet you don't have to go too far back to find one. It is better than it used to be though, with people coming for help, rather than to complain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Actually, a correction. We are (somewhat) polite, not all of the time, but more importantly we are much, much more helpful than to just say 'because it sucks.'
Are you just trying to refute everything I typed? Whatever. Sometimes you are not polite. Sometimes you are. If you look back, it was intended as a compliment to the general tone of the forum. I am sorry you took it so personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
We prefer helpful answers, you apparently do not.
What a grown up response. How are any of these answers helpful? How is this thread helpful? Calling out a particular picture just seems kind of classless to me.

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Originally Posted by JRMDC
No sour grapes, I have no desire to have been the first to submit such a shot. I doubt anyone else in this thread has that desire either. And "their website" IS a good answer to lots of questions here.
Look, when someone posts a thread titled "come on, you can't be serious?" the unsaid second sentence, in my way of thinking, is "how did this picture get accepted, I have a bunch that are way better than that", etc. That is just how I read it. Looking back, I don't think it was the intention of the poster, but that is what sprung to mind when I read the first post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
And you are welcome to that opinion! One you share with Sean to some extent. Feel free to express it. No one here is suppressing opposite views.
The freedom of speech includes having to answer to your speech. Thus the back and fourth between us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
I just don't understand this "sour grapes" argument. Who is expressing such feelings? Who wished it had been them to have been first with such a picture?
You are misreading the sour grapes aspect of it. It is not "I wish I had that first" it is "I have so many better pictures than that..." etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
I agree.
Me too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Say, no. Express an opinion as to what the site should and should not try to do, yes. We are the customers.
Customers? I am curious as to the motive (ha ha!) for you to put up pictures. Is it sharing with those of like interests, or something else?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
Watering down may not be the best way to put it, but there is some of that. It is simply expressing preferences as to what sorts of shots are accepted. Something about which we may all vary in opinion (for me, for example, 90% of the night streaked-headlight shots are of no interest whatsoever).
Watering down would mean that great photos stand out even more than they already do, among a sea of crap. Plenty of other sites to find examples of this. Myself, I don't like reflection shots of a small portion of the subject in a puddle or whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRMDC
What is wrong with expressing, and yes, doing so vehemently, one's opinions of what should and should not be accepted on RP? If you say anything in response, please answer that one question.
And what is wrong with me disagreeing with you, and the finding manner the which the picture in question is discussed distasteful? You are taking this guys picture, and by extension him, and holding him and it up as an example of what you feel is inferior to the other pictures on this site. Myself, I don't feel comfortable picking through a bunch of pictures on this site and saying 'hey, this stinks' or starting a thread about how crappy it is. Obviously others do.



But you and I have gone off on a tangent, and the thread has moved on between our responses. To get back on...

The screeners are a team, if I am not mistaken. There are more than 1, and thus consistency is, um, inconsistent. Should there be written rules about what is posted here? If so, wouldn't that stifle the artistic growth of the site?

I can understand that people don't want landscape views taken from a train added to the site, sure, whatever. But I think that if the forum is allowed to decided what the criteria are for this site then it would be detrimental to railpictures.net.
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Old 01-31-2008, 08:52 PM   #38
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I can understand that people don't want landscape views taken from a train added to the site, sure, whatever. But I think that if the forum is allowed to decided what the criteria are for this site then it would be detrimental to railpictures.net.
Rather than go again through all the discussion - I think you miss some of my points, maybe I am unclear, maybe I am wrong, maybe you are and don't realize it, whatever - let me just go to this one main point, as quoted above.

No one here is trying to claim the power of deciding what the criteria are or arguing that the forum's general opinion should rule. Several are expressing their opinions, including some very strong opinions, as to what those criteria should be. You seem to be opposed to the mere occurrence of that discussion. You seem to believe that, in doing so, we are "knocking down others." That is where we disagree.

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Old 01-31-2008, 09:23 PM   #39
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You seem to be opposed to the mere occurrence of that discussion. You seem to believe that, in doing so, we are "knocking down others." That is where we disagree.

G'day!
Not opposed to the occurrence of the discussion, just putting my vote in with the disagreeing camp, that's all.

Conversations through an internet forum are often difficult to have properly, so no doubt we are not following each other 100% I am sure if we discussing it over beers it would go smoother. For a little at least
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Old 01-31-2008, 09:28 PM   #40
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I am sure if we discussing it over beers it would go smoother. For a little at least
Or trackside!
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Old 01-31-2008, 11:29 PM   #41
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Or trackside!
Mmmmmmm. . . . . . beer. . . . . . .
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:10 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ccaranna
Meh. Not impressed. Anyone stopped on a bridge can do that.

Just because it's the first shot like it here doesn't mean it's the best on the net. Wait until an influx of copycats start getting uploaded. You'll be tired of that angle after the third variation.
They accept this shitty picture, but they wont accept my pictures??? I have tried and they deny them every time and they are 100 times better.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:32 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdirelan87
When it becomes the battle cry for mediocre photographers that repeatedly fail to get anything accepted, yes maybe it will.
(post #20 of this thread)

and

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Originally Posted by railroadlover
They accept this shitty picture, but they wont accept my pictures??? I have tried and they deny them every time and they are 100 times better.
and so it begins ...
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:33 AM   #44
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They accept this shitty picture, but they wont accept my pictures??? I have tried and they deny them every time and they are 100 times better.
Care to share your amazing works of art?
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:53 AM   #45
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(2),

Not going to admit you accepted the unique/landscape shot in question that sparked this thread?
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:11 AM   #46
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(2),

Not going to admit you accepted the unique/landscape shot in question that sparked this thread?
Hahaha, can't say I did actually.
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:28 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railroadlover
They accept this shitty picture, but they wont accept my pictures??? I have tried and they deny them every time and they are 100 times better.
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Can we send a note home to this guy's mommy? He needs a bit of instruction in manners.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:38 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by railroadlover
They accept this shitty picture, but they wont accept my pictures??? I have tried and they deny them every time and they are 100 times better.
Uh oh.

I just wish he'd level it and resubmit it...that's all. THAT is what bugs me the most about it.

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Old 02-01-2008, 04:57 PM   #49
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The photo appears to be gone now. Does this mean all of you who complained need to go through your photos and delete a photo that some of us might not agree with?
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:09 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLEzero
The photo appears to be gone now. Does this mean all of you who complained need to go through your photos and delete a photo that some of us might not agree with?
As I said, photo did nothing for me in terms of interest. Given that the masses protested enough and whoever it was decided to erase the photo, that's fine, even if I don't agree with it.

This has simply shown me that screeners/editors opinions can be manipulated by committee.

The issue at hand STILL has not been addressed, and that is inconsistency amongst and between the screeners, and how the standards for this site are upheld.

Given RP.net's size and scope these days, it's about time something was done to hold screeners accountable for these "errors in judgement".

I've long felt that the screener rejecting a photo should have their name appear in the rejection e-mail. Maybe it's time to think about enacting that policy.
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