Old 05-25-2015, 07:55 PM   #1
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Default Which type of PEQ II - or why the inconsistency?

As many of you may have noticed, I posted a series of images from the Monticello Railway Museum. I had only heard of this place knowing little about it until a visit in 2014. I was so impressed with the staff, the collection and the history, I returned 2 more times before the end of the year. It's like a little (but giant) Illinois Railway Museum.

Consequently, I wanted to share the "discovery". And with such an amazing collection of unique equipment, I also wanted to share the knowledge. Lots of times, we see equipment but never realize how fascinating the back story is. We see only what we want to see or what is obvious in appeal.

A little publicity to the Monticello Railway Museum was the thought as well. To that end, several museum members and many patrons have thanked me through private e-mails and even in the comment section.

So - what is it with admin that this is not a factor when submitting images to a railroad DATABASE? There's more to "best railroad photos" then prettiest railroad photos.

This is obvious with the acceptance of images that could've been better on another attempt with better conditions or images that simply have more appeal in the back story then the image itself. Think wrecks. Think newsworthy events. The overcast 611 photos and those from the Nevada State Railroad Museum. There are PLENTY of shots accepted into the DATABASE that obviously had more merit in the back story then the quality of the image. So why is it so hit and miss to get those types of images accepted??

As an RP patron - I find instances as such very frustrating:

This is acceptable: (ACCEPTED)



But this is not: (REJECTED and REJECTED AGAIN ON APPEAL)


Was there a better way to take that image?

Was the back story not worthy on inclusion to that DATABASE?

Was the quality really not on par with the first image?

The appeal was rejected - as if the caption was not worthy, nor apparently were my thoughts on my intent to submit such an
image to the database - a database with more then just pretty pictures.

/Mitch


Fish on a train - who knew? Who would even think to ponder?

Remarks: John G. Shedd Aquarium Car

Have you heard of the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago? It is one of the nation's premier aquariums. When it opened in 1930 the aquarium relied on a heavyweight baggage car named "Nautilus" to transport live fish and animals from coastal waters to Chicago. By 1957, the original Nautilus was worn out and its old style and color made railroad lines less likely to hook it to one of their premier passenger trains. So, in 1959, the Aquarium took delivery of Nautilus II, a buffet lunch car bought from the Chicago & Eastern Illinois Railroad and refurbished by the Thrall Car Manufacturing Co. of Chicago Heights. About 2,000 fish, including starfish, lobsters, crabs, porcupine and puffer fish, pork fish groupers, butterfly fish and angel fish, could be transported at a time. In 1952, it was refurbished as a lunch-counter lounge and retired in 1972. Eventually, the car was donated to the Museum in 1974. The Nautilus II made several runs over the IC. When headed to or from Florida the car was often attached to the City of Miami. It even found itself attached to the Santa Fe Super Chief for trips to the West Coast.
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:08 PM   #2
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Did you know that the Monticello Railway Museum has assembled a collection 6 Illinois Central streamliner passenger cars?

Have you ever seen even just one of them? Are you curious to learn more?

Have you ever used RP for its DATABASE to see what exists? What equipment is present at a museum?

If you look up "Illinois Central" and "Monticello Railway Museum" you will find one less Illinois Central streamliner cars then pictured here in this rejected image:



Make that two less, as there are two IC streamlined passenger cars in this rejected picture.

Part of the reason, I'll admit, in posting this on the Forums is the thought that neither my captions nor comments to the screener were ever read, or given much thought. Another part wonders if anyone who frequents the forums agrees that such images have value with inclusion to the database. I say thing keeping in mind what DOES get in.

/Mitch
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:45 PM   #3
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I use google when I need to search about a museum.

I come here beca.. I don't know why I come here anymore.

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Old 05-25-2015, 09:23 PM   #4
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Looks like RP management is less than enthusiastic about rolling stock roster shots.
No one can please everybody, but if a shot is well done, and at least somewhat interesting, let the viewers decide!
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:52 PM   #5
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I can only think that if there were enough room?? a shot from the other end showing the car name and windows closer would be better.
From this end of the car ???????

Bob
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Old 05-25-2015, 10:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miningcamper1 View Post
Looks like RP management is less than enthusiastic about rolling stock roster shots.
I forgot about that rumored perception... thanks?

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Originally Posted by RobJor View Post
I can only think that if there were enough room?? a shot from the other end showing the car name and windows closer would be better.
From this end of the car ???????

Bob
Good observation - though, you might think I'm known well enough by admin by now that only the best possible angles would be submitted by me. An ever so rare comment from the screener with that observation would've been acceptable, however.

Unfortunately:



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Old 05-26-2015, 05:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobJor View Post
I can only think that if there were enough room?? a shot from the other end showing the car name and windows closer would be better.
From this end of the car ???????

Bob

What I've done in the past in these situations is either (1) stood in the middle and taken three shots with my Nikon 24mm PC-E shifted left, centered, right, and stitched them, or (2) camera on tripod shot a series of frames starting from left and moving down to the right end, with distance and height kept the same on camera (camera leveled each time with torpedo.) Then stitch the shots together. The alternative is to try to push the car out into the open.


Kent in SD
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Old 05-26-2015, 05:31 AM   #8
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What I've done in the past in these situations is... stood in the middle and taken three shots with my Nikon 24mm PC-E shifted left, centered, right, and stitched them,


Kent in SD
What a great idea for utilizing a tilt shift lens!

I've tried it with a fish eye corrected for distortion - a bit of a mess!
'Course, that was with a GG1 and a Canon 20D.

Oh - and for RP, you would have yourself a panorama shot, in any
of those instances, no?

/Mitch
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:32 AM   #9
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First off, I would've accepted the photo. But maybe they are thinking that this is just a photo of the outside of what appears to be (without reading the remarks) a run-of-the-mill baggage car. Maybe, if possible, a shot of the inside showcasing what this car is actually about, might turn the screeners on to it a bit more.

In words you might understand, this to the screeners could be like taking a picture of an Amtrak passenger car and saying, "There's a dog in this car even though you can't see it."


These views are not representative of the commenter, but rather of the commenter's views of the screener's views.
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:56 AM   #10
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First off, I would've accepted the photo. But maybe they are thinking that this is just a photo of the outside of what appears to be (without reading the remarks) a run-of-the-mill baggage car. Maybe, if possible, a shot of the inside showcasing what this car is actually about, might turn the screeners on to it a bit more.

In words you might understand, this to the screeners could be like taking a picture of an Amtrak passenger car and saying, "There's a dog in this car even though you can't see it."


These views are not representative of the commenter, but rather of the commenter's views of the screener's views.
Good analogy - it is like the "Dog on a Train" in that most railfans are /were unaware such a thing could ever come to be. And in both circumstances, a detailed informative caption was given.

Now - that being said, since when are run-of-the-mill baggage cars off limits on RP? I was not able to explore inside - does that mean this car does not exist? To be honest - I did not even realize the significance of the car until I got home and further researched it. THAT was the point of sharing the image and detailed back story.

/Mitch
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Old 05-26-2015, 08:07 AM   #11
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Now - that being said, since when are run-of-the-mill baggage cars off limits on RP? I was not able to explore inside - does that mean this car does not exist? To be honest - I did not even realize the significance of the car until I got home and further researched it. THAT was the point of sharing the image and detailed back story.
Oh I understand. That's why I said I would've accepted it. I like the caption and the picture. I was just trying to get in the heads of the screeners/admins (screenmins). Doing so made smoke burst out of my ears though, so I'm heading to the hospital as we speak.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:35 PM   #12
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What a great idea for utilizing a tilt shift lens!

Oh - and for RP, you would have yourself a panorama shot, in any
of those instances, no?

/Mitch

Yes. And as I recall you shoot Canon system. They have a 17mm t/s, which would be even better for this.


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Old 05-27-2015, 12:21 PM   #13
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The most visually appealing image here is the wedgie of the diesel.
The story about the Nautilus is really cool. But on visual interest, it is way down even below the diesel shot.
As Dennis Livesey I would accept it.
If I was a RP Chris I would reject it.
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Old 05-27-2015, 08:06 PM   #14
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The story about the Nautilus is really cool. But on visual interest, it is way down even below the diesel shot.
As Dennis Livesey I would accept it.
If I was a RP Chris I would reject it.
Does anyone here believe that Railpictures.net is a database featuring ONLY the BEST visually appealing railroad photos on the net?

There is more to "BEST" then visual appeal, otherwise I'd agree that "as RP Chris", it would merit rejection. By example, again, I'll mention the Darwin shots, the wrecks, the overcast newsworthy shots and the dull to most class 1 wedges in scenic baron locations.

I think what it comes down to - based on input from admin - is that while photos as such ARE acceptable to RP, they are not preferable. Maybe this will change as I've gotten good feedback both in comments and private e-mails, and even favorites more so then most generic diesel class 1 wedges which are accepted daily. That, and the intrinsic value of offering a place for historians, charter operators and modelers alike to have a source of reference. Ie; A viable supplemental audience.

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Old 05-28-2015, 01:10 AM   #15
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:18 AM   #16
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I'll say this
- the pictures are dull
- RP is a database, but it doesn't need a dull roster shot of every piece in every RR museum
- RP is a database, but it doesn't need to be the place of record to find every piece in every RR museum, or every significant piece
- RP is a database, but it doesn't need to be the only database in the hobby
- I personally find any number of well-lit wedgies, as appear here in the thousands, to be much more interesting to look at, despite their GEVO-repetitiveness and so forth, than most of the shots shown here
- there has to be a line. Well, there doesn't have to be! But I personally prefer one, where some shots are excluded. I want the shots here to have some minimum of visual interest. Were it my site, I would raise the bar (and lower, in some dimensions), but it isn't mine.
- RP serves multiple purposes. Mitch and I disagree on what one of those purposes should be. [Admin agrees with me! I win! I win!]

- My comments here will not induce Mitch to cease and desist from his long running campaign.
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Old 05-28-2015, 01:47 AM   #17
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Sorry Mitch,
I am with J.
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Old 05-28-2015, 02:30 AM   #18
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...any number of well-lit wedgies, as appear here in the thousands, to be much more interesting to look at, despite their GEVO-repetitiveness and so forth...
Unless the background scene is eye-catching in some way, I just scroll right past those...See one, seen 'em all.
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:11 AM   #19
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Unless the background scene is eye-catching in some way, I just scroll right past those...See one, seen 'em all.
Exactly - don't like it, keep scrolling.

As for a passenger car that carries fish - See zero, seen none at all.

I think others would agree - there's more appeal to something unique then to something seen a thousand times on RP. And J, you cherry picked your argument and overlooked the fact that RP is in fact a database of photos of which many are far from visually appealing. Though RP does not have to be THE database in which everything can be found, why would admin want others to go elsewhere?

I am not a wreck fan, nor a Darwin fan, nor do I care for NS wedges in nondescript places but I suggest, if those are acceptable, then why not museum roster shots, even those locked up indoors in tight confines?

I'll say one thing (again), as one who helps put together photo charters, I find RP, as do others, an invaluable resource when researching just what is available. Several people have privately e-mailed me to thank me for publicizing this Museum, noting it is now on there must see list.

/Mitch

PS - Dennis - I'm surprised to see your response.

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Old 05-28-2015, 12:41 PM   #20
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I still agree with J's statement.
Yes, you have done a great job on publicizing the museum. Well done!
Yes, adding fascinating pieces of equipment to RP is a great thing to do.
However, while I think the fish car's story is fascinating, the shot itself is not visually interesting enough.
My museum shots you pulled have more visual interest and I would say that is why they were accepted.
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:16 PM   #21
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And J, you cherry picked your argument and overlooked the fact that RP is in fact a database of photos of which many are far from visually appealing.
I did not cherry pick; none of my arguments rest on your statement.

Quote:
Though RP does not have to be THE database in which everything can be found, why would admin want others to go elsewhere?
Admin perhaps has, and were I in their place I certainly would have, some minimum standard for each of their multiple criteria for a photo. Well, I am sure they are not so formal, but the informal equivalent. Their database is made more attractive for some purposes (general viewing pleasure by a broad group of fans, which would be reduced by the presence of too many shots of the type you propose and the examples you provide) by making it less attractive for other purposes (database of all museum content). It's a tradeoff, and admin has made a choice on the balance. (And they make other tradeoffs, such as upping the acceptance factor, or dropping the visual interest and/or quality of light factors, if the shot is a wreck.)

Put differently, how many and which of RRPA's shots would you want to see included on RP, and what is your criterion for choosing? I think we can all agree that many RRPA shots are not of "RP quality" and the hobby is well served with separate databases. I think we can ... Anyway, RRPA admin have made a different choice regarding the balance of attractiveness and inclusion.

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My museum shots you pulled have more visual interest and I would say that is why they were accepted.
Yup, in RP's view, and in mine, a shot needs to make some minimum level of visual interest.

BTW, if you come back at me with the shot below, my response is that RP chooses a different visual appeal standard for engines than for passenger or freight cars. You can disagree with their choice, of course.

Image © Janusz Mrozek
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Old 05-28-2015, 05:48 PM   #22
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http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...=532498&nseq=2

Here you go!! Normally would have skimmed by but since following this conversation.
--------------------------------------------------

Rather see more of following(something I have not seen before, good light, interesting, actual railroading.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...532497&nseq=16

So as long as there is room for both.....

Bob

Union is only a few miles from my house, Hmmmmm.

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Old 05-28-2015, 10:17 PM   #23
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Put differently, how many and which of RRPA's shots would you want to see included on RP, and what is your criterion for choosing?
J, you ignorant slut.

I would like to see IN THE DATABASE (along with wrecks, Darwins, dull wedges of class 1 railroads in non-descript places) anything of historical interested that has yet to be included at least once in the database so long as the image is captured as well as possible considering the conditions.

Taken to another level - would I want a photograph of each box car ever made? As a modeller, I'd have no issue with that. As a photographer, I might get bored and I would be forced to scroll past those shots, and 487,000 others. .

From admin point of view - I can see where it could get tiresome to a viewing audience. However, it was never my intent to feature every single piece of equipment in that particular museum. Just a couple of each to give the viewing audience an idea of just how extensive and impressive the collection actually is. That, and the fact that such equipment exists is a benefit to any considering a photo freight charter as well.

I understand admin's position - too much, too soon. Yet I prefer to upload one collection at a time rather then bouncing back and trying to remember what I have yet not posted in some distant point in the future.

El Roco's Carrizo Gorge Railway material is a good example. All fantastic material and very much welcome and appreciated - more by some then others. After a while it does get to be a bit much but there is not one shot I'd like to see rejected. They lose some of their luster - periodically, but I'm glad they are there as I expect to often review the series in its entirety as time and interest indulge. And imagine someone researching the line for a presentation, a visit, or even an article or book. What an asset those photos are to RP and the community at large.

I assume Dennis may agree with these thoughts in regards to his (and my own) EBT series of images that were cut short by "same as similar" rejections. Each shot on their own seemingly acceptable, but in quantity, perhaps viewer overload.

Jim Thias - if you are keeping up, the ADD in me has come to terms that photos submitted randomly over time can be recalled by date and location but it's hard to break a habit and perhaps harder to remember what to queue for future submissions.

/Mitch
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Old 05-29-2015, 12:06 AM   #24
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J, you ignorant slut.
The genius of America is that my sluttiness is not suppressed.

Quote:
Each shot on their own seemingly acceptable, but in quantity, perhaps viewer overload.
The above sentence is probably not fully representative of Mitch's extensive and well taken comments but will have to do as I don't want to quote the whole thing.

I think there is a mechanical aspect here that you are overlooking. The screener can't judge your intentions, they don't know how many you intend to do, your motivations, etc. The system is such that they have to evaluate picture by picture. They will have some memory of other submissions, especially in the same screening session. Given that, how are they supposed to screen, under what conditions are they supposed to give slack vs not? What rule do they apply to deviate from customary screening?

One approach is to pull a Travis and pre-arrange your uploads.
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Old 05-29-2015, 01:23 AM   #25
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Quote:
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http://www.railpictures.net/viewphot...=532498&nseq=2

Here you go!! Normally would have skimmed by but since following this conversation.
The cones...why did he leave the cones...............


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Jim Thias - if you are keeping up, the ADD in me has come to terms that photos submitted randomly over time can be recalled by date and location but it's hard to break a habit and perhaps harder to remember what to queue for future submissions.

/Mitch
See, I'm not the only one inflicted with it when it comes to trains. Oh, and OCD too (see my comment above).
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