Old 11-29-2011, 12:25 AM   #1
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why I don't post as often to RP as I once did. Lately it just isn't worth my time when easy ins get rejected. I always understand my right on the line stuff. Maybe I'm just plain wrong.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=587014417
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:28 AM   #2
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Well, technically it is sidelit, they make exceptions for that all the time, maybe they felt this wasnt worth it.

I got backlit on this one the other day, it's not backlit at all, maybe I am splitting hairs, they could have thrown in some other sort of lighting rejection I suppose.

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Old 11-29-2011, 12:40 AM   #3
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A Nice photo but the light is off for what they ask for. Right or wrong who knows.
I add, And I bet they get a bunch E mails about why he got a back lit one on and mine didn't too.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:49 AM   #4
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To much dark side of the train showing I would guess. Not so much back lite as not enough light on the visible sides.

I feel your pain with lighting.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:55 AM   #5
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My opinion is that the shot is kinda flat regarding contrast and lighting, and is an an unflattering composition from a very scenic location.

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Old 11-29-2011, 01:03 AM   #6
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It's a sad situation when GREAT photogs don't feel like posting anymore. How can you claim the best photos on the net? I saw Martin Burwash doesn't submit anymore. He was one of my favorites.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:06 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by travsirocz View Post
why I don't post as often to RP as I once did. Lately it just isn't worth my time when easy ins get rejected. I always understand my right on the line stuff. Maybe I'm just plain wrong.
People often ask me why I still post to RP, lol. It's quite a shame, Travis. I really miss seeing photos from you and a few others that no longer post, or post much less often.

In regards to both your shot, Travis, and Troy's - the one thing that comes to mind is the following thought: "Are the conditions repeatable in better weather AND, if so, would they result in a better end product?" For Troy's shot, I'd assume so. For Travis's shot - likely true as well in regards to the dreary sky.

Now - every business needs it's patrons to survive. I would hope that an appeal would merit serious consideration on the part of admin should either of you truly believe their shot is either unique and non-repeatable, or best taken and most appealing as is under the conditions present at the time of capture.

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Old 11-29-2011, 01:41 AM   #8
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I just thought it was an easy in. Almost any recent shot can be repeated or redone better. RP isn't about that. Having the side lit doesn't add to the shot in any way in my eyes. The power is in the red nose and exhaust that gives it life.

I do understand what most of you mean and are saying. I'm not mad over this shot, it just bugged me tonight.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:46 AM   #9
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I Too went thru what are they thinking stage, Now I fix it or just post to flickr and don't worry about it.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:49 AM   #10
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I Too went thru what are they thinking stage, Now I fix it or just post to flickr and don't worry about it.
I've been doing that for years. I think it was more the I haven't submitted here for awhile and I will run a few through. I pick a couple off the wall shots that I figure may get rejected and throw a couple under handers in that will sail right in. That was the under hander.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:58 AM   #11
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I'm with Mitch, I miss seeing your work as often as you did post. But I get to see all of your work via Flickr and FB, so it's all good. I keep on going back to what the rat once said, yes I agree with him on one thing......we are encouraged to think out of the box. That means going against the guideline grain. I too have been trying to do such things, but to no avail. Flickr sees most of my work now.

For example

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=124634092

The sun was working against me, so I decided to go with that. Work with what I got. Low lying sun with heaps of snow creating some texture. Cool scene, but technically it won't work within the guidelines I suppose.

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Old 11-29-2011, 02:01 AM   #12
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It's an excellent shot and should have been accepted. Frankly, I wonder why any of us bother to upload images based on the current string of inconsistency.

I'll repeat my oft stated opinion: RP should be MORE inclusive, not LESS inclusive. Photographers---particularly the youngest and most impressionable---are increasingly dancing to the tune of screener acceptance, rather than broadly expressing themselves artistically through their work. Monkey see, monkey do.

Eventually, this site will only accept the most formulaic of images. How sad...
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:15 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
It's an excellent shot and should have been accepted..
Shocking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
Eventually, this site will only accept the most formulaic of images.
Indeed.

Image © Ron Flanary
PhotoID: 382302
Photograph © Ron Flanary


Image © Ron Flanary
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Photograph © Ron Flanary


Image © Ron Flanary
PhotoID: 381399
Photograph © Ron Flanary


Image © Ron Flanary
PhotoID: 381389
Photograph © Ron Flanary


Image © Ron Flanary
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No offense toward Travis, who is undoubtedly an outstanding photographer, but I would really love to know, Ron, exactly in what way any photographer is "expressing themselves artistically" by submitting a 3/4 wedgie of a freight train going around a curve with the entire visible side of the train totally shadowed.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad shot, but it doesn't meet our lighting standards, especially given the fact that, as others have mentioned, we already have 200+ shots of this very curve, many featuring the same general set of power, and most with much more favorable light.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travsirocz View Post
why I don't post as often to RP as I once did. Lately it just isn't worth my time when easy ins get rejected. I always understand my right on the line stuff. Maybe I'm just plain wrong.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=587014417
Can you imagine how many great photos could be added to the database if they accepted more images that show the dark side of the train but great nose light? Makes you wonder...
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:40 AM   #15
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I never post here, but tonight I feel inclined to do so.

When I got back into chasing trains a few years ago, this was the best rail site on the web, hands down. Work from photographers all around the country could be seen, all different types of photos from anywhere. If you went on this site on any given day and looked at the new shots, it felt like an accurate barometer of the nation's rails that day. I've met some fantastic people via this site. I felt like this site brought the railfan community together. Not now.

Inconsistant screening and clear favoritism for certain individuals has totally alienated some great rail photographers from contributing their work.

I understand this is a private site, and screeners get to pick what shots stay and go, which is fine. This private site though wouldn't exist without shots from contributors, and the contributors are going away. In my area, Pennsylvania, there would be at least a page full of new photos at the end of a weekend day. Not anymore.

Even on these forums in the past couple of weeks you can see a clear disgust from long time shooters. It's not just a couple of isolated cases anymore. I believe this site may have seen its peak unless something is changed. It's feels like this site has gotten too big for its britches.

I know I'm not the greatest photographer, and I don't care to be. I use this hobby to have fun and to relieve some stress...not create more stress. I just can't understand how the site admins can't see that there might be an issue, an issue that has been underlying for a while, but now really starting to show.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:48 AM   #16
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It is a real fine line. You let too many ok shots on the site and that can cause people not to look also. If I was a screener, I would probably reject a lot of shots that usually make it on but also let on a lot of shots that don't usually get on to RP.

It would be cool and probably impossible (technically) but what if RP had a couple of artistic screeners that went through the rejects and picked out a few. Nevermind.

RP does a decent job with the mixture they have in their database. Dingbats like me just think they have it figured out and then find out they don't.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:18 AM   #17
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Wow, A lot of nice shots being being posted today, even one from John Ryan, who also hasn't posted in a while. Must be something in the air.

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Old 11-29-2011, 03:21 AM   #18
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When I got back into chasing trains a few years ago, this was the best rail site on the web, hands down. Work from photographers all around the country could be seen, all different types of photos from anywhere. If you went on this site on any given day and looked at the new shots, it felt like an accurate barometer of the nation's rails that day. I've met some fantastic people via this site. I felt like this site brought the railfan community together. Not now.

Inconsistant screening and clear favoritism for certain individuals has totally alienated some great rail photographers from contributing their work.
I've always been the first person to admit that the screening process isn't perfect. I've also always been the first to ask for suggestions as to how it could be made better and, specifically, more consistent. I've found out over the past nine years that folks are quick to point out the flaws, but when asked what the solution is, they get quiet, and quickly.

I don't say that as a dig, but more to try to prove a point that I don't believe there are any easy answers to "fix" a system that, no matter what, operates with a sizable amount of subjectivity based on its very existence.

At JetPhotos, we have a system in place where the majority of photos go through multiple screeners - best 2 out of 3, so to speak. The queue is also over 16,000 photos long, and runs about 20 days between time of upload and time of screening presently. That's with 35 screeners; we have five here. And we get just as many complaints about the screening process over there as we do here.

As for favortism, I always have to smile a little when I hear this, because 99% of the time, the people we're accused of showing favoritism toward are the same people telling us how much we suck behind the scenes (or in some cases, publicly).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Gaydosz View Post
I understand this is a private site, and screeners get to pick what shots stay and go, which is fine. This private site though wouldn't exist without shots from contributors, and the contributors are going away.
I would disagree with that. As some photographers stop submitting, others step up to take their place. We're accepting just as many photos today as we were five years ago, while screening less in total (and that's a product of the "new" queue limit of 2 for new members, vs. 10 for most members who were grandfathered in under the old limit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Gaydosz View Post
Even on these forums in the past couple of weeks you can see a clear disgust from long time shooters. It's not just a couple of isolated cases anymore. I believe this site may have seen its peak unless something is changed. It's feels like this site has gotten too big for its britches.
Frankly (and I know this will ruffle some feathers), part of the issue as I see it -- and this "phenomenon" has been discussed with nearly unanimous agreement amongst railroad magazine editors and other "leaders" in the hobby -- is that some photographers, as they get better and more established, tend to grow their ego on a similar plane to that of their improving photographic skills, talents and achievements.

In layman's terms, some develop an attitude that "my shit don't stink."

I can't tell you how many contributors we've had over the years (some old, some young) who've had 1 rejection in the midst of 25, 50, 75 straight acceptances and demanded, without even asking us for an explanation on the rejected image, that we remove their photos and account at once.

That used to bug me, but a few years ago I realized that I can't let it. I hate it whenever someone opts to pull their photos off the site, or even to stop contributing, but at the end of the day, we are NEVER going to be able to make everyone happy. I sleep a lot better at night with that mindset.

We screen photos from more than 1,000 contributors in an average week, which means we are dealing with a huge range of personalities, egos, skill sets, all the while trying to keep the best balance we can for 50,000+ daily viewers, all of whom have just as many differing opinions as to what we should and shouldn't be accepting. A change in standards (for example, accepting less "dreaded wedgies") that might make one contributor happy would cause another stop submitting. The same change would please one viewer and lead to another never visiting again. All you have to do is read through a couple threads on this forum to see just how many different ways different people can see the same photo.

That said, we are always striving to improve the process, and I'm always open to suggestions as to how we could do that. Mitch made a great one in another thread earlier today... adding some guidance to the horizon unlevel rejection (to let the photographer know which way it needs to be rotated). I'd like to take that suggestion one step further and apply it to all reasons that could be construed as vague at times.. for example, splitting the Bad Color rejection into, for example, Color (Undersaturated)/Color (Oversaturated)/Color (Hue). I'd have never seen Mitch's suggestion unless I happened to be reading the forums this evening, and as sad as it is, there's absolutely no way I can read through every post that's made here every day.

With that in mind, you can PM me here, or e-mail me directly at chris.kilroy@railpictures.net (or photoscreeners@railpictures.net if you'd like to contact the entire team).

Thanks!
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:33 AM   #19
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why I don't post as often to RP as I once did. Lately it just isn't worth my time when easy ins get rejected. I always understand my right on the line stuff. Maybe I'm just plain wrong.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=587014417
You're just plain wrong.

Your railroad photography is among the best I have ever seen and in my opinion, has improved so rapidly it has left most of us in the dust. Of course, others will disagree but to me your 611 accepted photos is one of the best portfolios on the site.

That being said, look at it. Why is a rejected "easy in" something to prove why it isn't worth your time.

When I read this thread and saw the rejected photo, I took it as "this is a nice train picture but it isn't a Dewitz".

Where is the mood, the feeling, the "how in the world?!?"?

This next point isn't directed to you, Travis.

Why do people make rejections a deterrent instead of a propellant? I guess it is a glass half-full, glass half-empty scenario. Most will take it as "they don't think my photo is good enough for their stupid site" while it should be taken as "okay, this didn't work for them, let me try to take it up a notch."

We're ALL (or most anyway) guilty for getting flustered after a rejection but its how you handle it when you cool off, which some people never do (LOL). Do you take all your photos off and "leave"? Do you stop posting and settle for other sites or your own personal site? Or do you use it as encouragement to be better.

Yes, it is a hobby. If you are happy with what you do then stop getting bent out of shape when you get a rejection. You will just be doing the same thing the next time you are out shooting. You've reached the point you want and you need to realize that sometimes it just doesn't work for the screeners. If you think of it as a constant challenge, then you will want to continually improve or push the envelope or go after something that will potentially be recognized for the hard work that went into it.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:43 AM   #20
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The few times I have appealed and asked for a simple explanation in my appeal I get a "Your appeal has been rejected" notice with no further explanation. To me things like that muddy the water. I think all people really want to know is what the screener is thinking.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:51 AM   #21
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You're just plain wrong.



That being said, look at it. Why is a rejected "easy in" something to prove why it isn't worth your time.

When I read this thread and saw the rejected photo, I took it as "this is a nice train picture but it isn't a Dewitz".

Where is the mood, the feeling, the "how in the world?!?"?
I guess that is what I mean. I figure most of my moody shots that I submit will be rejected as they don't fit RPs guidlines that well. So when they get rejected it sucks, but at least I was expecting it. Thank you for the compliments.

My mood rejects.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...&key=750025927

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...d=991062&key=0

Both expected.
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:05 AM   #22
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No offense toward Travis, who is undoubtedly an outstanding photographer, but I would really love to know, Ron, exactly in what way any photographer is "expressing themselves artistically" by submitting a 3/4 wedgie of a freight train going around a curve with the entire visible side of the train totally shadowed.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad shot, but it doesn't meet our lighting standards, especially given the fact that, as others have mentioned, we already have 200+ shots of this very curve, many featuring the same general set of power, and most with much more favorable light.
Chris,
It's not a 3/4 wedge, first of all. It's a telephoto shot "across the bow." This is a boring 3/4 wedge:

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Also, there's much visual appeal to shooting on the dark side of the train. When did the Ten Commandments of Rail Photography come down from Mount Ararat? ("Thou shalt only take train photos when the sun is on the nose and side!")

If you have 200+ shots of this very curve, I haven't noticed them. Actually, if you had 2000+ shots taken here, why would that be a factor in accepting or rejecting an image? I missed that one on the selection criteria. ("Thou shalt not have more than 200 images posted on RP at a particular location, no matter how wonderful a new contribution may be!") Oh....you said "favorable light." Ah yes....that's hang up with shooting on the "dark side."

I'm merely expressing my opinion here (is that not the intent of the forum?). I know that Jesus Christ couldn't please everyone as a screener, but I honestly think a less anal approach to judging the photography of folks, who after all, are uploading and donating their images for the financial enrichment of RP can be respected a bit more.

As for some of the other comments, I'll backstop Chris on these points:

1. I'm one of the oldest contributors to RP. I had image number 6;

2. I'm a constant critic---but they've tended to consider my comments (they don't always agree...), and they've done so respectfully;

3. My shit DOES stink....and it has since I was born. In fact, I'm less of photographer today than I was 25 years ago. I'm way past my "prime."

4. I certainly get NO favoritism from RP's screeners, and never have! I get my share of rejections, and I sometimes sling snot and raise sand. I threatened to take my images off the site a couple of times---but that was seven or eight years ago, when I was "young." I know better now...

5. RP is a constantly evolving thing, and I believe it will continue to improve. Guys like me will be behind them with a pitchfork to make our points along the way---not because we're always right, but because we see the need to climb to a higher level.

Thanks for reading my comments and responding...
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Old 11-29-2011, 05:01 AM   #23
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I'm not going to read all of this, but I dont get what the big deal is Travis. You have much better shots in the database, and at the same time you've been given alot more leeway in some cases. Especially with your 100+ photo upload in one day, I dont think most people wouldve been able to get that many on in one day.
for example
Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 325405
Photograph © Travis Dewitz

Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 325371
Photograph © Travis Dewitz

Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 325369
Photograph © Travis Dewitz

Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 325362
Photograph © Travis Dewitz

So whats so special about this shot? I'm going to discount the fact that there are two SOO SD60M's since you dont care about power. Its just a filtered no sidelight standard angle shot. The colors are blah and its a bit grainy. I dont see any power in the red nose, its very lacking in contrast. Im sure you have a frame of the lead unit rounding the curve without any of the dark side showing submit that. This is a very reasonable rejection compared to the technicality rejections that many have been getting.
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Old 11-29-2011, 05:19 AM   #24
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Don't have a dog in this fight really, because I am much more a railfan photographer than a photographer of trains, as Travis and many others on this thread are... that being said, Travis... not to blow smoke up your tushy, but you have become one of the most brilliant railroad photographers I have ever seen.

That being said, as I just said to another great photographer tonight, Chipper Jones strikes out... Derek Jeter strikes out. Please keep stepping up to bat.

Striking out here doesn't mean you're wrong and they're right - or the opposite. It just means it was a miss. Keep going.
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Old 11-29-2011, 05:31 AM   #25
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...Especially with your 100+ photo upload in one day, I dont think most people wouldve been able to get that many on in one day.
...
Wow....I think I might have uploaded five or six in a single day, but 100! How long would that take?? What do you do in your free time? I'm impressed anyone would even take that many train photos.

For the record, I post .66 photos a day, since my first shot was uploaded in December 2002. I still have 40 or 50 Logan slide boxes to scan, so at this rate, I'll submit my last shot to RP in the year 2400 (I'll be 453 years old...).

Maybe I'll get a couple of Screener's Choices or Photo of the Millennium if I'm lucky....but only if I master this "unlevel" thing...

If I can't make it that long, I'll leave my slides to some decent young photographer on RP, and he/she can deal with 'em....
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