Old 01-21-2008, 04:16 AM   #101
Burner50
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Sorry to burst youe bubble, But since college I have ALWAYS had a job that put me outside in the elements the majority of the time and I cannot recall ever having a stranger take my picture just because they had a habit of taking pictures of people doing said job
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Old 01-21-2008, 12:45 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Burner50
Sorry to burst youe bubble, But since college I have ALWAYS had a job that put me outside in the elements the majority of the time and I cannot recall ever having a stranger take my picture just because they had a habit of taking pictures of people doing said job
All this proves is that you have never had your picture taken for this reason. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen to other folks. I work in a field with other professionals and people constantly ask us to -- mainly the on air talent -- to be in pictures. Many times I am asked to take the picture. (I am a photographer afterall.) And I mean the folks expect us to stop what we're doing and pose with them.

People ask me to see inside the back of a live truck and, sometimes, "how does it work?" What most people love to do is to talk to be about people who have worked at my station. Doesn't matter if it was 40 or 50 years ago or not. 'Course, I'm not complaining. Last week when shooting the circus train and waiting to shoot the elephant walk, a man struck up a conversation with me about where I work, people we both know and how our cameras have changed over the years.

Here's the other thing. How am I supposed to know when a railroader is breaking a rule? If it's an obvious one, maybe I would kow. But I'm just a guy with a camera; you're (speaking generally here, not directed to burner) the railroader. If you see a guy with a camera, maybe you shouldn't break any rules. If someone takes a picture of me doing something not by the tules when I set up a live shot and the picture gets back to my boss, who should I blame? Me? Or the photographer?


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Old 01-21-2008, 04:30 PM   #103
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Whenever I go overseas is where I see the largest amount of people photographing me at work. It's almost as if tail spotting is like cocaine to the English! I'll just wave and be flattered knowing that someone is interested in what I do...
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:08 AM   #104
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i dont expect you to know when i'm breaking any rules.

So far *knock on wood* I have not had any discipline brought against me, but if I see somebody with a camera taking pictures of my every move I get nervous that maybe one of the thousands of rules was forgotten and you're working for the weed weasels trying to nail me.

I get nerous because this is my job, this is my life. If i dont have it then My wife goes back to work and I have to work some other crummy job and my kids suffer...


PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN
okay... well seriously I know that you dont know all the rules... Neither do I, thats the part i dont like. Maybe you catch me breaking a rule that i wasnt aware of, or i'm in a momentary lapse of judgement for whatever reason I dont care... I just dont like having my picture taken while I'm on the ground working... Maybe if there was ACTUALLY something interesting going on it would be different. And I can understand if i'm working with special power or a special cargo. But usually when I get my picture taken I'm not doing those things, And it makes me nervous...

NERVOUS CONDUCTORS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE INJURED... PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN

lol hehe... okay i'm done with the overdramatic stuff. But seriously when there is somebody out there taking a picture of me and I get nervous or flustered that is when accidents do happen.

USUALLY If I dont like somebody watching me while I'm on the ground I simply stop what I'm doing and notify the 'spatcher that theres some susicous people hanging around. I hate to do that because somebody has a hobby but I will. I know nothing will happen to you and you will probably be back tomorrow if you even leave but that may get you to stop taking pictures of me.


And you keep comparing your news van to my job... sorry you are doing something with local "celebrities" and are more than likely in a public area. I am in a private area that is many times secluded. And you say "many people ask" key word there is ASK to take pictures... Most foamers do not.

IN closing, If I am in an area that has few roads in or out, many natural or manmade barriers and many "no trespassing" signs then I have an expectation of privacy. Whether or not you agree with me I guess is the courts decision.

I do not hate foamers and I have no problem with your hobby. I personally do not like having my picture taken when i am on the ground working. If i'm in the power or rolling down the track sure take all the pictures you want. I might just take one of you

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Old 01-22-2008, 07:42 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by JimThias
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Disc Jockey? What can possibly happen to you if you get your picture taken? Embarrassment from picking your nose or getting caught with your fly down? Hardly anything worth losing your job over, I imagine. If anything, you may welcome getting your picture taken for publicity. The worst thing that can happen to you is your picture is taken while playing a bad set. And in that case, who can tell anyway?

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WHAT was "probably a situation?" Are you citing something that happened at a specific time that led to photos of people working being off limits? Please elaborate.
Yes, but I don't feel like elaborating. I'm kind of over this topic. Every single one like it that I come across is a never ending debate. I'm just sticking with "let's give railroaders some space and ask for permssion" and "don't ruin it for the next railfan".
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:45 PM   #106
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Yes, but I don't feel like elaborating. I'm kind of over this topic.
As am I, and I have nothing more to add after Burner's post above. He about sums up what was needed to be said, and I definitely will be more aware of things when shooting RR employees working.
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:34 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Burner50
IN closing, If I am in an area that has few roads in or out, many natural or manmade barriers and many "no trespassing" signs then I have an expectation of privacy. Whether or not you agree with me I guess is the courts decision.
We're probably not too far off from agreeing on some issues. I don't have a problem personally that you don't like havingyour picture taken. As I tell folks all the time, why do you think I'm a photographer? So I an be behind the camera!

But you do not have an expectation of privacy if you are outdoors with the obvious exception of some military bases. I can fly over a remote section in a helicopter and take pictures. Or some enterprising guy with a camera might figure out away to get to lens range ofwhere you are on public property.

Naturally, if this enterprising guy with a camera tresspasses, then he should face a fine for that.

I'm sorry that it has come down to calling in "foamers" as suspicious just so they won't take a picture of you. I would hope that when people get called in to the dispatcher, they're actually suspicious and didn't simply get on your nerves.


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Old 01-22-2008, 11:01 PM   #108
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In Burner's defense, if he is on the ground, he is doing his job. He should not have to babysit railfans that may be getting too close, and just do his job unimpeded. If I get too close and get run over, DUMB ME. It's not like the train can swerve for me, although if I get run over, I am obviously trespassing, so I guess it is his job then to call me in at that point. But if I'm sitting track side, out of the way legally, no harm no foul. It's not any different than a rubber necker driving by an accident scene, and taking a peek vs. someone holding up traffic to get the details of what's going on when I'm doing traffic control for our FD. Or Joe Public watching Joe the Photog do is job vs. bothering him when he's trying to do it.


I'm fairly sure that 99% of us find ground work, MOW crews, etc. pretty interesting. I read John Witthaus' article on the home page, and a lot of us do have a strong interest in the human element, the people that make the horses work. Usually when I am in the human element situation, I am invited, or have permission to be there. If I get "bad vibes" from a crew, I at least put my camera down. If the vibes continue, I'll leave although it has never gone that far.
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Old 01-23-2008, 04:12 PM   #109
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In Burner's defense, if he is on the ground, he is doing his job. He should not have to babysit railfans that may be getting too close, and just do his job unimpeded.
I don't think his job description has anything in it about "being responsible for other people/nonemployees" and/or "babysit everyone you see with a camera". In other words, he doesn't have to worry about someone with a camera unless of course there's a violation of safety.

Reading his posts it almost seems as if he's more concerned about being caught violating a rule than anything else. My response to that would be to a) know the rules and b) follow them regardless if someone's there with a camera or not. If you're worried about doing something wrong and being caught because you didn't know the rule, then the problem isn't the dude with the camera...it's the fact that you're violating/not aware of the rules...
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Old 01-23-2008, 06:44 PM   #110
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If you're worried about doing something wrong and being caught because you didn't know the rule, then the problem isn't the dude with the camera...it's the fact that you're violating/not aware of the rules...

lol... apparently you have never worked with the railroad rules before. There are literally thousands of pages and they change daily, and most are open to the managers interpretation. So me following the rules may not be a managers version of following the rules. So you can take that excuse and your "well its my legal right so you cant do anything about it" attitude and shove it.

I usually leave threads like this alone and I only chimed in because previously somebody asked for a conductors POV
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:35 PM   #111
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apparently you have never worked with the railroad rules before. There are literally thousands of pages and they change daily
Not railroad rules, but aviation related, and there are thousands and thousands of rules just for flying in the U.S. alone (not even counting those covering the operation of the specific aircraft you're in). Going over the oceans or flying in different countries adds on a couple powers more. And they are all subject to immediate change. But not knowing them is not an excuse for violating them.

And maybe it's not this way in the RR world, but in the flying world, there are recourses available if you've been "wronged" by management". Plus, if you're uncertain how a rule is to be interpretted, find out how leadership views it or interprets it. I know with our directives, most of them anyway, have a process where if they're wrong, confusing, or make no sense, there's a process where you have the power to submit corrections/clarifications. That gives you some control over the rules you are supposed to adhere to. Throwing your arms up in the air and saying "there are just too many rules we have to follow so I'm not going to learn them the best I can" isn't the answer...
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:44 PM   #112
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Not a railroader myself, but from what I know of it, both from reading and from hearing from current employees, management/labor relations are often pretty bad in railroading, and nothing I read here from Burner sounds out of line.
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:19 PM   #113
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It's often said in the railroader's world that "They have a rule for everything, and two for nothing."

The problem is, every single rule on the railroad is WIDE open to interpretation. The rules may not specifically state that the conductor or other T&E employee needs to be conscious of railfans and their activities, or anyone else near the tracks. But, a manager looking for a reason to be a dick, can bend the rule to support their objective.

Beyond that, even if a rule is unclear, or vague, the railroad management is generally so inexperienced, or indecisive, that what they say one time will be entirely different fifteen minutes later. Even moreso, if you're on over the road freights, you might pass through "jurisdiction" of several different management personnel, and they all can look at the same rule, and come up with a different interpretation.

For example, on CSX, they have what the "General Rule", if memory serves me correctly it was "Rule G". And this is the catch-all rule, if it's not specifically stated elsewhere in your grip, this rule is the one the management will fall back on to burn your ass.

So if you fail to sit down to tie your shoe and throw your back out by bending over, they can, and likely will use it as justification to fire you. In their eyes, you acted in an unsafe manner when you could have sat down in a chair to tie your shoe and possibly prevent the injury.

Now as a railfan or otherwise uninitiated you can say how "unfair" it is, and that there may or may not be recourse. This is true to an extent, however, for railroads that have union membership, it can take several weeks or even months for an investigation to be held and subsequently overturned with sharp representation. Never mind that during this time, the person in question is quite possibly living without a paycheck, unless they have out of service coverage or job insurance. Because in most cases, they don't get backpay for missed starts. On the non-union outfits, well, you maybe looking for a new career, period.

And as a side note, the fact that they got fired, doesn't go away, even if it's overturned in an investigation hearing. That stuff all gets tucked away nicely in a computer system somewhere, and the railroad can and will bring it out to haunt you later. I know trainmaster in Brunswick, MD that kept hard copy files on all of his employees and even if the investigation committee ordered the charges dropped and expunged. He still kept them as part of HIS personal files and while it's probably illegal somewhere, who's going to challenge him?

So that being said, I personally can't hold it against Burner or any other railroad employee that calls in a railfan for taking their photo, public property or not. Because in the rather unlikely event something bad were to happen, management types WILL be looking for scapegoats, someone they can place blame upon other than themselves. And if they even suspect that there was what they can broadly interpret as a rules violation, someone will get fired. They maybe back a few weeks later, but be that as it may, they still have to figure out how to make it through their suspension without a paycheck.

This doesn't mean I condone railroaders' breaking the rules intentionally, or even unwittingly, because ignorance of the rules is no excuse for breaking them. But this job is their livelihood, it's our hobby. . . .
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Old 01-24-2008, 01:02 AM   #114
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Throwing your arms up in the air and saying "there are just too many rules we have to follow so I'm not going to learn them the best I can" isn't the answer...

Where did I say that that is what i do? You are comparing 2 very different industries and making broad generalizations. The railroad is nothing like flying.

I know the rules the best I can, but many are open to interpretation and they change them frequently. As previously stated one managers interpretation may be different than another managers interpretation of a certain rule
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Old 02-25-2008, 06:59 PM   #115
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I have to say that that Security dude was watching tooooo many movies or just power tripping.I respect that there are people that just love trains and if i can,i try,if i have time and there is no way of any danger to them or myself i bring them up into the power to see what it looks like.I see these little kids eyes go as big as saucers or even the big kids!! when i invite them up for a peek.Ive been a hogger for many years and before we could take a guest with us,and that was no problem.By the way this is CPR in Canada.In the late 90"s there were a few tragic accidents that involved guests and the railroad put a damper on it.You still can,but there are waivers to sign in case of an accident,the railroad is not responsible in any way.My hobby is aircraft and i know how i feel if the crew invite me in the cockpit for a peek or sometimes it was an hour,and wow i felt like i won the lottery!!! But those days are winding down too.So if i can,and sometimes sneak!!! shhhhhhhhh! a person up for a look or i have taken a few for a ride,the reward of seeing the smile and excitement on someones face is second to none.Then let them jump behind the panel and actually power it up and or take a minimum reduction,well sometimes i worry because the dont wanna give my seat back!! If someone is brought on or even on the company border,there is nothing wrong with it at all in my mind,but i guess in this day and age some of us are a bit nervous
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Old 02-25-2008, 09:35 PM   #116
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nothing like draggin up topics that were abandoned a month ago...
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