Old 01-21-2012, 10:19 PM   #1
Andrew Blaszczyk (2)
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Default Rotate which way?

http://www.railpictures.net/viewreje...=1006177&key=0

The center most window is perfectly vertical but it still got rejected and rejected on appeal.
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:34 PM   #2
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If I picture myself on the street. it makes me feel like I'm leaning to the left.

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Old 01-21-2012, 10:42 PM   #3
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I would make the prominent corner vertical.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:16 PM   #4
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Clockwise. That's gonna be tough though without some perspective correction in photoshop.
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:33 PM   #5
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I would make the prominent corner vertical.
Precisely. I'd fix the distortion. It's not as if the building is so high you want to keep the distortion to enhance the effect so why not fix it? If you elect to leave it, most people would accept the leaning on each side and focus on the center which looks off CCW.

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Old 01-22-2012, 01:17 AM   #6
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I've contemplated that shot myself. That damn tree. I think a night shot is the best bet.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:22 AM   #7
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I've contemplated that shot myself. That damn tree.
Call Thias, he can help you. You might have to wait until next Christmas though....
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:23 AM   #8
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I've contemplated that shot myself. That damn tree. I think a night shot is the best bet.
You need to go "George Washington" on those trees...
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:55 AM   #9
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Call Thias, he can help you. You might have to wait until next Christmas though....
As others have already stated, distortion correction is the way to go.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:59 AM   #10
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Precisely. I'd fix the distortion. It's not as if the building is so high you want to keep the distortion to enhance the effect so why not fix it? If you elect to leave it, most people would accept the leaning on each side and focus on the center which looks off CCW.

/Mitch
I don't think you should ever mess with the "distortion." The shot is level, based on the center point of the photo. The worst tool on Photoshop is the "lens correction" thing.

This is the sort of stuff what would drive a sane person to drink! I wouldn't prostitute myself to that extent to please RP...or anyone. If they don't like the shot as is....don't sweat it. That's just one opinion, and as my late mother would say, "their mouths are not a prayer book."

That's just my opinion, of course (but one that is bandied about off list quite a bit by many veteran photographers on this particular subject).
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:16 AM   #11
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I don't think you should ever mess with the "distortion." The worst tool on Photoshop is the "lens correction" thing.
The distortion tool in Photoshop FIXES the distortion created by the lens. Do you suggest also that a tilt-shift lens is should not be messed with as well?

In this case, I see nothing beneficial in presenting a distorted and uncorrected photograph. Sometimes it is beneficial:

Image © Travis Dewitz
PhotoID: 302847
Photograph © Travis Dewitz


but here, it is not.

/Mitch
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:33 AM   #12
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Ron "click the shutter and done" Flanary is a-fearin' the photoshop.

Back to almost serious. I agree with Mitch. Sometimes it's an interesting effect. In this instance, the photograph just looks off without addressing the distortion.

Loyd L.

Lover of distortion correction, and free form transform
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:40 AM   #13
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Ron "click the shutter and done" Flanary is a-fearin' the photoshop.

Back to almost serious. I agree with Mitch. Sometimes it's an interesting effect. In this instance, the photograph just looks off without addressing the distortion.

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Lover of distortion correction, and free form transform
I think Photoshop has its place (and I use it all the time, and find it to be very valuable tool)...but I also think "click the shutter and done" defines the true photographer. That's not to say I qualify, by the way...but I try to make it right at the instant of shutter release without the bells, whistles and gimmicks of excessive manipulation. That's my goal, at least.

One other thought: RP could make this easy by refusing to accept any shot taken with a wide angle lens, since it would always be distorted (a "normal" or any telephoto shot would not be distorted). That would mean you would no longer have to use lens correction or something else to cheat and make a wide appear as a normal. This is akin to putting a square peg in a round hole.

We've been down this road before---and my avatar kind of sums up my way of thinking.

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Old 01-22-2012, 03:46 AM   #14
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I always nail the shot, it's just that the camera and lens doesn't always see it my way.

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Old 01-22-2012, 12:28 PM   #15
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either way, it should be photog's choice. i never thought this "distortion" was a problem needed fixing until I started hanging around here.
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:57 PM   #16
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either way, it should be photog's choice. i never thought this "distortion" was a problem needed fixing until I started hanging around here.
Ah...yes! My point exactly.

Simple words of wisdom from an old geezer: If it ain't broke...don't fix it.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:28 PM   #17
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either way, it should be photog's choice. i never thought this "distortion" was a problem needed fixing until I started hanging around here.
Before my 10 to 22 mm went down, I used it liberally and almost never used the "Fix distortion" tool in PSE7. (Although there are a few shots that I look back on and think I should have.) But with AB2's shot, somethign seems off. I know we've had people say it's level, others say it needs CW rotation; I swear it needs a little CW rotation myself. I guess since there's no consensus, maybe that's more proof it's just a little off.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:50 PM   #18
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Janus nailed it. Looks leaning left.

CW to make the corner vertical.
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:58 PM   #19
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Leaning to the left without a doubt. The bus in the lower right corner, or even the cars, could be used to properly level it. That's my take anyway; I've never used this lens correction/ distortion thing.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:13 PM   #20
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Ah...yes! My point exactly.

Simple words of wisdom from an old geezer: If it ain't broke...don't fix it.
Well, lenses today ARE "broke" compared to those of the old days. I see countless photos of cityscapes from the 30s and 40s with little to no wide angle distortion. They didn't have photoshop to fix that back then.

Exhibit A:

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Old 01-22-2012, 04:46 PM   #21
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No guys.....it is not "leaning." Hear me out:

A distinguished photographer friend of mine sent this e-mail a few days ago during one of our periodic discussions about the state of railfan photography. This person is well known (frequently published), and has over 45 years of experience in this field. He is one of the people I look to most often as a "guru." Here's a portion of the message:

...Add to that the photographers etc who don’t understand what they are doing, or that “straight” is measured in the MIDDLE of the photo, etc. And that there MUST be something wrong with their photo because RP rejected it. “How can I fix it?”. Err, sometime it don’t need fixing; its fine. Being rejected is not the end of the world. I love RP. But at the same time it’s a love/hate relationship. Nope, I could NEVER submit material to them. (I’m scared just to think of all the things I did "wrong" beyond the ones I already know.). Yep, it would drive me nuts.

So, as we consider the shot as submitted by Andrew, it's perfectly aligned and level as is. The only point you consider is the center of the shot, and it's "plumb." I've added a line (from the grid) to illustrate:


Like my friend, I really love RP. But...it's not perfect, by a long shot. Any time the contributors to this site spend great time and effort to "fix" shots that are fundamentally correct, they actually end up unintentionally denigrating the body of railroad imagery. This actually feeds the long, slow downward spiral to a point, theoretically, where all train photos eventually look the same.

I will always be an advocate for innovation, creative expression and broadened horizons for train photography. There was nothing wrong with this shot at all. It's just not necessary to grovel for RP's approval of an image---particularly when you know that "fixing" it means compromising your integrity as a photographer.

I wouldn't do it...
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:47 PM   #22
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Well, lenses today ARE "broke" compared to those of the old days. I see countless photos of cityscapes from the 30s and 40s with little to no wide angle distortion. They didn't have photoshop to fix that back then.

Exhibit A:

That's not a wide angle shot, Jim. It was taken with a "normal" lens.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:50 PM   #23
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Well, lenses today ARE "broke" compared to those of the old days. I see countless photos of cityscapes from the 30s and 40s with little to no wide angle distortion. They didn't have photoshop to fix that back then.

Exhibit A:

Needs a little CCW rotation.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:52 PM   #24
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Wouldn't you find the center line vertical on an uncropped version. We don't know how much of it is cropped.

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Old 01-22-2012, 05:06 PM   #25
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particularly when you know that "fixing" it means compromising your integrity as a photographer.
Horses---! It's not whoring yourself, or lowering your standards, or compromising your integrity! It's fixing a technical issue generated by the lens. Therefore, not part of the scene as captured!

If it's wrong to correct a flaw generated outside of my artistic vision, then I'll be wrong till death. I just hope I don't end up in a hot shower crying in the fetal position over it...

Heck, maybe Andrew's vision was to make the shot all distorted. If that's indeed the case then fight to the death for it I suppose.. lol

Everyone's an expert with this stuff anyway!

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