Old 12-07-2011, 07:35 AM   #1
DelmonteX
Senior Member
 
DelmonteX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 214
Default A UP Development

My apologies if this has already been the subject of another thread. I did spend sometime looking and didn't find anything here.

Looks like UP has taken this love/hate relationship with photographers to a new level.

http://www.uprr.com/she/photo-video.shtml

The punch line is "Union Pacific will seek removal from publication any photograph or video that violates this policy."

The policy is to stay off railroad property.

"Obey all safety rules, regulations and instructions provided by law enforcement and Union Pacific employees. "

I especially like this last one. We all know how knowledgeable law enforcement and railroad employees are in regard to Photographer's rights.

Note, I'm not saying we have a right to trespass. Also note that while in the context of the other stated policies, this last one would appear to refer to instructions as it relates to being on railroad property, but it doesn't say that. Someone (or more) is going to interpret this as meaning they we should follow instructions from a UP employee even if we are on public property.

Wonder if the site owner's will be looking for extra help in dealing with UP's request to remove photos it deems to have been taken from RR property.

As reported on another site, it seems the folks over at Trains Mag had a hand in helping to construct these new policies.
__________________
Steve Carter
Headquartered in the Puget Sound (well off to one side)

My Railpictures.net photos


My other photos
DelmonteX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 11:50 AM   #2
Chris Z
Senior Member
 
Chris Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Libertyville, Il
Posts: 937
Send a message via Skype™ to Chris Z
Default

The way I see it, if the railroad isn't safe then it should be removed. OSHA and local inspectors should be sent in to inspect and violations cited where ever such safety issues exist.

Chris Z
Chris Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 01:45 PM   #3
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,687
Default

I'm happy UP is way over there, and I'm way over here..

Loyd L.
__________________
Social Media elevates the absurd and mediocre to a point where they aren't anymore, and that is a tragedy.

My personal photography site
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:01 PM   #4
Hatchetman
Part-Time Railfan
 
Hatchetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,381
Default

This doesn't surprise me and won't affect me but it amazes me how paranoid the railroad industry is about "us." I don't understand it. Sure, lawyers want 100% risk avoidance, but how much risk is there, really?
Hatchetman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 02:12 PM   #5
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,040
Default

I believe this had to do with a video shot in the gauge under a passing train.
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 03:04 PM   #6
Greg P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 1,003
Send a message via AIM to Greg P
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
I believe this had to do with a video shot in the gauge under a passing train.
1% of the people ruin it for the rest of us.
Greg P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 03:17 PM   #7
troy12n
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,333
Default

UP policy is not law, they cannot compel anyone to remove any video or photo.

The onus is on UP to prove alleged trespassing. Which would not be cost effective.

Honestly, if UP tried something like that on me, I would sue them in small claims court, win, and collect my $5000 per incident. And put a lien on their ass and proceed to foreclose on their property if they didn't pay.

These companies think that because they have a police force, they can do whatever they want and are exempt from the law, they arent...
troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 05:06 PM   #8
DelmonteX
Senior Member
 
DelmonteX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
I believe this had to do with a video shot in the gauge under a passing train.
That's what I understood as well. That said, it's interesting how the focus moved from trespassing to photography (the policies are under the heading of "Union Pacific Policy for Photography and Video Recording").

The issue with the video referenced above was first and foremost trespassing, as so it is with the far more dangerous and seemingly increasingly popular fad of using railroad tracks as a location for wedding photos and senior photos (among other purposes). In all of these cases, the photographer may have never stepped a foot on railroad property. The video camera could have been placed by a helper. The wedding party artfully arranged under the direction of an assistant, the photographer standing safely and legally off railroad property, while the subject's of the photo are in harms way and plainly trespassing.

These are far more of a danger than the railroad photographer standing a few feet on the ROW or walking some distance along the ROW to reach a vantage point. Yep, we, they, I am/are trespassing. But far and away, we do it with much greater knowledge of the danger the railroad presents, the methods of avoiding said danger, and consequences of our actions, than the wedding party standing in the gauge.

It just seems that UP has targeted the wrong group. Yes, we, the ones frequenting this site and forum have been targeted. From the first paragraph of the policies (in case you didn't go to the link above): "Taking pictures or video while on Union Pacific property is dangerous, so when taking pictures or video of Union Pacific Railroad trains or structures:". The wedding photographer isn't taking photos of UP Trains, nor are they really intending on taking photos of the structures. The tracks are simply an element in the photograph.

All that being said, I agree, the ones among us who go to far are bringing unwanted and generally unwarranted negative attention to our hobby (and sometimes income streams).

Perhaps if someone says (even if it's that little voice in our collective heads), maybe that's not such a good idea, we'll heed the warning.

In the meantime, maybe UP and the other RR's need to be more aware of the other groups drawn to the tracks for a photo shoot. Consider making a call the next time you see a collection young women adorned in the current fashions of matrimony artfully placed on the ROW, or a mom and dad setting up their offspring on the tracks for that memorable family portrait. Perhaps the railroads are unclear on the danger these photographers present (by their quantity, not their presence). As the unofficial eyes and ears of the railroads, maybe it's time we let them know.
__________________
Steve Carter
Headquartered in the Puget Sound (well off to one side)

My Railpictures.net photos


My other photos
DelmonteX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 05:22 PM   #9
Joe the Photog
Senior Member
 
Joe the Photog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 7,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DelmonteX View Post
The punch line is "Union Pacific will seek removal from publication any photograph or video that violates this policy."
.
Railpictures already had that policy. Shots have been rejected for PEQ if they think it looks like the photog was trespassing.

Don't trespass. Problem solved.
__________________
Joe the Photog Dot Com
Joe the Photog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 07:00 PM   #10
troy12n
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
Don't trespass. Problem solved.
Absolutely, but UP going around trying to get stuff pulled without any due process is bogus. There are certainly first amendment issues if they try to use their law enforcement to do this.
troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 07:38 PM   #11
DelmonteX
Senior Member
 
DelmonteX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe the Photog View Post
Railpictures already had that policy. Shots have been rejected for PEQ if they think it looks like the photog was trespassing.

Don't trespass. Problem solved.
Joe:

With all due respect, that's not really the point. For if it was than the policy would focus soley on trespassing without reference to photography.

This policy, if UP attempts to enforce it, has the potential to cause publications to be overly cautious in publishing photos, for fear that UP with it's army of litgators will cause them massive grief over the perception that a photo that might have been taken from UP's property.
__________________
Steve Carter
Headquartered in the Puget Sound (well off to one side)

My Railpictures.net photos


My other photos
DelmonteX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 07:55 PM   #12
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb UP's Railfan Policy is Bi Polar

It seems UP has always taken a more aggressive approach to dealing with the public photographing their equipment, and their operational stance continues to be very anti-photographer.

And yet, they bring out UP 844 and put on a good show and are very nice when the encounter is on their terms.

I have observed this in Southern California since at least 2009, when one of their special agents drove up to the Cajon Pass one sunny Saturday afternoon and literally kicked everyone out between Keenbrook and Summit under threat of citation.

It was interesting because he had done so without BNSF's knowledge, and most of the people who were contacted had been standing on U.S. Forest Service land adjacent to the BNSF ROW, not that of UP. (UP has only one track up there, but they have trackage rights over BNSF in that area.)

Another was driving on a U.S. Forest Service Road (3N53) that is open to the public and runs parallel to the Palmdale Cutoff.

In the week that followed, this agent became famous in the railfan community when it was determined that he had illegally kicked people off of Hill 582 and some other places that are well known railfan hangouts, and all located on public, not private property.

As a consequence, the crap hit the fan and as a result, UP's LEO presence in the Pass has been almost non-existent.


Then came the most recent run of UP 844 from West Colton through the Pass to Yermo.

While I have not heard of any unfounded contacts by railfans with either law enforcement, or security in the Cajon Pass on the day of the steam event, the famous special agent was up in Yermo telling people to get away from the train until someone from the UP steam crew told him to give it a rest.

Here is a picture of him pouting. Name:  Agent Youngblood 800.jpg
Views: 3246
Size:  91.6 KB


If you are ever in Southern California, or Western Arizona and get contacted by this gentlemen, I would like to hear from you. This is special agent Mark Youngblood and it is usual for him to tell people that they cannot take pictures from where they are standing even though they are on a public street, or not standing on UP's property.

Last edited by Holloran Grade; 12-07-2011 at 08:00 PM.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 08:04 PM   #13
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,040
Default

Bufford T. Justice
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 08:10 PM   #14
Holloran Grade
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: In the California Republic
Posts: 2,774
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
Bufford T. Justice
There is blind justice:


and there is clueless justice - see above.
Holloran Grade is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 09:39 PM   #15
Ron Flanary
Senior Member
 
Ron Flanary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Big Stone Gap, VA
Posts: 1,327
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbassloyd View Post
I'm happy UP is way over there, and I'm way over here..

Loyd L.
Agreed, Loyd. I have no interest in or patience for such ignorance. Of course I'm not going to trespass on UP property (or signals...!!). I'll just use a 1000mm zoom and keep my distance in the future.
Ron Flanary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 09:53 PM   #16
Freericks
Met Fan
 
Freericks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Flanary View Post
I'll just use a 1000mm zoom and keep my distance in the future.
That's what she said...
Freericks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 10:04 PM   #17
troy12n
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 5,333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freericks View Post
Bufford T. Justice
No...

THIS

troy12n is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 10:32 PM   #18
CSX1702
Senior Member
 
CSX1702's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,268
Default

I hope other railroads don't catch on to this. Can you hear NS? "We are closing off Horseshoe Curve to the public and are no longer allowing photography."

UP would freak out if they visited the East Broad Top wouldn't they?
__________________
Derek

Flickr

Out Of Place Album
CSX1702 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 10:36 PM   #19
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,687
Default

NS is already extremely tough, at least they are down here in Southern WV.

Loyd L.
__________________
Social Media elevates the absurd and mediocre to a point where they aren't anymore, and that is a tragedy.

My personal photography site
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 11:18 PM   #20
Mgoldman
Senior Member
 
Mgoldman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,641
Default

Actually, I see nothing at all wrong with the stated policy.
UP can not be expected to say nothing nor can it state - use caution while trespassing, especially if you are not a professional photographer or railfan.

The true concern is to what degree it will be enforced.

Hopefully, only to the degree where there is obvious and legitimate concern for safety rather then simply anywhere within 16.5' from the center of the outside track.

/Mitch

PS - For those who think this is a UP only policy, tread carefully should you find yourself in Cumberland, MD:

http://times-news.com/local/x2293776...ad-safety-laws
Mgoldman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 11:33 PM   #21
nikos1
Senior Member
 
nikos1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,775
Default

Honestly, this is much better than CSX's unsaid policies, they are basically under the impression that every railfan should be treated as a terrorist. Atleast in the Atlanta area NS is the more friendly and CSX are the nazi's, a full reversal of how it used to be.
__________________


Wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=7861

More wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's http://nikos1.rrpicturearchives.net/

Video wedge shots of blue HLCX SD60's
http://youtube.com/profile?user=nikosjk1
nikos1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2011, 11:39 PM   #22
bigbassloyd
Senior Member
 
bigbassloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hilldale, West Virginia
Posts: 3,687
Default

Ah, thankful everyday to live in the country.. where a guy standing by a tunnel at 3am doesn't even warrant a second glance..

Loyd L.
__________________
Social Media elevates the absurd and mediocre to a point where they aren't anymore, and that is a tragedy.

My personal photography site
bigbassloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 01:20 AM   #23
DelmonteX
Senior Member
 
DelmonteX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgoldman View Post
Hopefully, only to the degree where there is obvious and legitimate concern for safety rather then simply anywhere within 16.5' from the center of the outside track.
Mitch:

Out here in the wild wild west, that 16.5' figure don't apply, and I imagine in many places around the country it's not applicable. The fact is that the ROW can vary in width in any given area quite a bit. It's difficult for anyone to know, railfan, RR employee, or RR police, just where RR property ends.

Point in case. In a little town of Napavine, WA on the BNSF Seattle sub is a spur served by UP. Both sides of the mains at a grade crossing have a similar sized parcel of largely empty land. One side is used as the parking lot of a restaurant, the other side appears generally unused and is not posted in anyway (or wasn't) as RR property. It just looks like a wide spot alongside a city street. A friend and I were setup more than 16' from the tracks to photograph the UP local working the spur. The conductor is one ugly railfan hating dude. Cussed us out, wrote down our license plates, told us we had to leave, that we were on RR property. We didn't buy it, but thought it wasn't worth any additional problems. So we drove around and parked in the restaurant's parking lot and proceeded to set up for photos. Shortly he's hollering at us again that we (and apparently all the other cars in the parking lot) are on RR property and we have to leave that spot again. This time we decide to hold our ground. After his work was done he could be seen steaming off to the locomotive. Later, with my Real Estate background, I was able to determine that in fact our first location was all RR Property. From the edge of the rails to the street, 54' in all. He was right, but not for the the restaurant side. So by UP's policy, we were to obey his instructions to leave the parking lot of the restaurant, even though he was flat out wrong.

I've been told to leave other places I've carefully selected to work and watch trains. Carefully, in that I've consulted readily available (for me) plat maps and identified where the RR property ended and reasonably ensured I was on public property. Usually after explaining this fact, I'm left along. In reality it would have taken a survey to determine the boundary line. Along the former BNSF Woodinville sub, the ROW is 125' wide.

I attached a small example of how much the ROW can vary in just one short section.

As stated elsewhere, there is plenty of legal precedents that make it clear that photographs made while trespassing can't be obtained or forced to be "removed" by the property owner. You are subject to trespassing charges and thats it.

UP has every right to enforce trespassing, protecting their property, equipment and company. That's where they should have focused their policies, on trespassing. Not targeting railfans and photography.

Just my humble 2 cents worth.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Untitled-2.jpg (51.1 KB, 215 views)
__________________
Steve Carter
Headquartered in the Puget Sound (well off to one side)

My Railpictures.net photos


My other photos

Last edited by DelmonteX; 12-08-2011 at 01:24 AM.
DelmonteX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 01:51 AM   #24
JimThias
Senior Member
 
JimThias's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 9,800
Default

And the unfounded paranoia in this country continues to grow....
__________________
.
Rhymes with slice, rice and mice, and probably should be spelled like "Tice."

This pretty much sums it up: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Thias
JimThias is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2011, 01:53 AM   #25
Mr. Pick
Senior Member
 
Mr. Pick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 662
Default

I'd venture to say a substantial portion of the photos posted on RP are in fact taken on the RR ROW, or on other railroad property. Some of my few may have been. I can't be certain that they were not, in some cases.

Question: Does the railroad actually own all the ROW area, or is it in some cases like an easement for utilities where the land may be owned by a private entity, but the utility has rights to access it, or to use it for future services, should they decide to do so?
Mr. Pick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.