Old 01-20-2017, 07:51 PM   #26
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If he's lucky, he will be so famous that if you poll 1000 random people on the street, 2-3 will know who he is.

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I think you're being extremely optimistic here...
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Old 01-20-2017, 07:54 PM   #27
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In regards to photo manipulation... it's against the rules, and fine. We all get that.

But the whining about it, comparing it to fake news? It's not.

Come on, this is a hobbyist website. There is no journalistic principles or value here, we are not photojournalists bound by some sort of ethical standard.

It really is comparing apples to oranges...
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Old 01-21-2017, 02:20 AM   #28
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In regards to photo manipulation... it's against the rules, and fine. We all get that.

But the whining about it, comparing it to fake news? It's not.

Come on, this is a hobbyist website. There is no journalistic principles or value here, we are not photojournalists bound by some sort of ethical standard.

It really is comparing apples to oranges...
Integrity means nothing?

Could have easily explained the fauxtograph in the comments.. Hey btw I had to do a shit ton of photoshop magic to bring you this because it's nothing even close to what really happened but hey I've done this countless times in the past on RP so it's all good.

It wont be the end of it however.

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Old 01-21-2017, 05:01 AM   #29
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Integrity means nothing?
How much does it bother me that the GATX units aren't there? Zero!

The images represent what a visitor might see on their next visit to the VRS, and I'm happy to have both deleted images enshrined in my permanent collection.

What the Hudson Line visitor will never see is an Amfleet car with three trucks, and as I type this, that one is still in the "database".
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Old 01-23-2017, 06:53 PM   #30
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How much does it bother me that the GATX units aren't there? Zero!

The images represent what a visitor might see on their next visit to the VRS, and I'm happy to have both deleted images enshrined in my permanent collection.

What the Hudson Line visitor will never see is an Amfleet car with three trucks, and as I type this, that one is still in the "database".
Seems to me the issue with Bruce's image has to do with a processing problem, the intent was to render the scene realistically. And indeed the "issue" is somewhat subtle, I never would have noticed without some help. Kevin on the other hand purposefully altered reality in a big way. And did a darn good job of doing so I might add. What Bruce was doing was consistent with the rules, what Kevin did was not. At a minimum Kevin should have been more candid about what he did, both for the screeners and his viewers.
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Old 01-23-2017, 08:09 PM   #31
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Seems to me the issue with Bruce's image has to do with a processing problem, the intent was to render the scene realistically. And indeed the "issue" is somewhat subtle, I never would have noticed without some help. Kevin on the other hand purposefully altered reality in a big way. And did a darn good job of doing so I might add. What Bruce was doing was consistent with the rules, what Kevin did was not. At a minimum Kevin should have been more candid about what he did, both for the screeners and his viewers.
Hi John,

I don't think I could have said it better. It all has to do with intent. In one case, the intent was to render the scene as it was and in the other case, the intent was to produce a "fantasy image." As you pointed out, both images required some rather sophisticated electronic wizardry, and I agree that both of the photographers involved are to be complimented on their skills. That said, I think that each should have been more up-front with what their intent was. Neither was submitting a single image that was processed "using normal techniques". If I was the Site Manager and I knew the story behind each, I would likely have approved the Budris image with the caveat that the photographer include a brief description of the technique he used in the caption. I would have rejected the Burkholder image as a violation of the site's rules, simply because the scene depicted never really happened.

One could argue that perhaps RP could/should have a segregated area for such "photographic art" or "fantasy images", in which the viewer would know going in that the images were not documentary in nature. The problem with such an idea is that the result would likely be a wide range of material ranging from simple fantasy (such as the Burkholder image) to the bizarre, such as an image I saw last night of the big Vermont Rail Locomotive hanging on the boom of a KC-135 in flight. Perhaps the idea for such a gallery could be pursued by folks other than the current RP Management.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:25 PM   #32
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Hi John,

I don't think I could have said it better. It all has to do with intent. In one case, the intent was to render the scene as it was and in the other case, the intent was to produce a "fantasy image." As you pointed out, both images required some rather sophisticated electronic wizardry, and I agree that both of the photographers involved are to be complimented on their skills. That said, I think that each should have been more up-front with what their intent was. Neither was submitting a single image that was processed "using normal techniques". If I was the Site Manager and I knew the story behind each, I would likely have approved the Budris image with the caveat that the photographer include a brief description of the technique he used in the caption. I would have rejected the Burkholder image as a violation of the site's rules, simply because the scene depicted never really happened.

One could argue that perhaps RP could/should have a segregated area for such "photographic art" or "fantasy images", in which the viewer would know going in that the images were not documentary in nature. The problem with such an idea is that the result would likely be a wide range of material ranging from simple fantasy (such as the Burkholder image) to the bizarre, such as an image I saw last night of the big Vermont Rail Locomotive hanging on the boom of a KC-135 in flight. Perhaps the idea for such a gallery could be pursued by folks other than the current RP Management.
I thought the difficulties that one encountered getting the shot didn't count around here. Certainly an extra Amfleet truck or two could be cloned out.

As for "fantasy", nothing in KB's drone shots was not there that morning. It's not like he depicted a Big Boy storming up to Gallitzin.

I have to wonder why KB's offerings incited torches and pitchforks, while other manipulated shots have stayed in. Like this one:

Image © Albert Lehmann
PhotoID: 486582
Photograph © Albert Lehmann
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:31 PM   #33
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I have to wonder why KB's offerings incited torches and pitchforks, while other manipulated shots have stayed in. Like this one:

Image © Albert Lehmann
PhotoID: 486582
Photograph © Albert Lehmann
I very distinctly remember that one being discussed when submitted...
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:59 PM   #34
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I very distinctly remember that one being discussed when submitted...
Yep. I was leaning toward "possible" until someone who knows the line posted that this juxtaposition would not happen.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:04 AM   #35
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As a long time (slide) film shooter, I've always had the expectation that what was in the viewfinder was what would be the finished image, if I exposed the film properly. One of my biggest reasons to resist going digital was that manipulation could create an entirely fictional representation of what had actually occurred. I still, as a documentarian, consider manipulation to be somewhat taboo.

On the other hand, there is the "art" element, where manipulation may be used to create an image that is impactful, if also fictional. I have no issue with these images, as long as they are not represented as documentary, as the VTR images were. Manipulation is not new, but it is more readily accomplished with digital images and the tools available. One of the most iconic images in railroad photography is a manipulation:

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Old 01-24-2017, 01:34 AM   #36
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I have to wonder why KB's offerings incited torches and pitchforks, while other manipulated shots have stayed in.
I don't sense torches and pitchforks, but I do sense some objection to the fact he doesn't tell folks. And fact that he doesn't tell strongly suggests he knows it is against the rules. So he is trying to outsmart both the screeners and the viewers. So it is fun to catch him at his game.

As to the other manipulated shots, they should go too. The problem of course is being certain they are in fact manipulated, and bothering to take the time to convince "management" that is the fact. So something in Switzerland is far more likely to slip through than something in our own backyard.

All that being said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with "manipulated" images. But this place rightly or wrongly has chosen to focus on "documentary" images, that more or less reflect reality, which of course is a judgement call like so much here. Personally I prefer to see folks make some attempt to follow the rules.
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Old 01-25-2017, 06:34 PM   #37
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As a long time (slide) film shooter, I've always had the expectation that what was in the viewfinder was what would be the finished image, if I exposed the film properly. One of my biggest reasons to resist going digital was that manipulation could create an entirely fictional representation of what had actually occurred. I still, as a documentarian, consider manipulation to be somewhat taboo.
I read this sentiment occasionally and it perplexes me. Any image, whether captured on film or digital, can be altered. "Fictional representation" is not limited to photos captured digitally, so there's no reason for any old film head to fear the switch to using a DSLR.
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Old 01-25-2017, 08:11 PM   #38
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I read this sentiment occasionally and it perplexes me. Any image, whether captured on film or digital, can be altered. "Fictional representation" is not limited to photos captured digitally, so there's no reason for any old film head to fear the switch to using a DSLR.
I recall a comment that you made a while back that you have never even handled a 35mm slide, so you may not be familiar with the process. With images made from film negatives or digital scans of film, I agree with your statement. With slides in their native format, not so much. All of the skill in making a slide occurred at the time the shutter clicked. If the composition, timing, and exposure were correct, and if Kodak or some other lab didn't screw up the chemical processing of the film (and it did happen), a good image resulted. There was no way to post-process a slide in the darkroom or otherwise. Of course now, I do post-process my scans, and it (hopefully) makes my images better.

One of the things that rekindled my interest was seeing some of the tremendous digital images on RP that could never have been done on film. I'm well over the fear of using a DSLR, and I would have been over it much sooner had I been more active in the hobby. My other big reservation in converting to digital was how to be able to merge a collection of tens of thousands of slides with the new media. Of course, I'm overcoming that by digitizing my stuff, much of which I've shared here. I've had my eye on a D750 for some time, but for reasons I won't go into here. I haven't yet been able to pull the trigger.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:57 PM   #39
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Well, if you're just talking about viewing slides on a screen via a projector, then I see your point. But then again, that wouldn't be any different from hooking my camera up to a monitor to view the pics on the memory card.

Once the images have been imported to a computer, whether starting out on a slide, a negative, scanning a photo, or off a memory card, they are all equally editable in the digital realm. Even if DSLRs didn't exist, you'd still be able to manipulate images in photoshop that were captured on slides or film just as you would with digital images.
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