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-   -   Sd40-2 vs sd40-3 (http://www.railpictures.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10156)

CP 8848 07-04-2009 05:35 PM

Sd40-2 vs sd40-3
 
Is there a way to tell between an SD40-2 and an SD40-3 (for example does it look externally different, sound different, etc)

TAMR159 07-04-2009 05:49 PM

Dash 3 standards generally imply computer controls. There is no way to tell the difference though, as SD40-3s are upgrades done after the fact - all of these units came from the factory as either SD40s or SD40-2s, and thus they won't look any different externally. Many roads show the model designation on the side of the cab, however (usually right below the number), so that's one way to tell. Otherwise just look it up on the internet after the fact.

Freericks 07-04-2009 06:49 PM

As Nick points out, the modern way to tell is look it up on the internet. Truth is that today model designations are somewhat randomly applied by different railroads and different remanufacturers.

EMD never made an original SD40-3.

Some locomotives that folks will call SD40-2s today started life as SD45s and SDP45s (and the latter, we are now told were really SD45Ms all along).

Personally, I say find a source that you like and stick with their nomenclature. Don't drive yourself crazy with the difference from different sources.

GMEMD 07-04-2009 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freericks (Post 93808)

Some locomotives that folks will call SD40-2s today started life as SD45s and SDP45s (and the latter, we are now told were really SD45Ms all along).

Personally, I say find a source that you like and stick with their nomenclature. Don't drive yourself crazy with the difference from different sources.

Also true with ex DMIR SD40T-2 units, that have been rebuilt as CN locomotives, as they have had QES (an electronic load control system built by Wabtec) installed and are now called SD40-3's.

In 2001, INCO (now owned by Vale and called Vale Inco) bought 8 GP35's and had them rebuilt by Wabtec in Mexico. They were turned into what they called a GP38M-4. A 500 horsepower de-rating was achived by swapping out the turbocharged 567D3A for the roots blown 645-E engine. Because the GP38 is longer, extra steel was welded to the frame as ballast for extra weight. The M designates that they are equipped with a D series generator (D32 I believe), instead of an AR10 alternator. They are also equiped with QES, why they are called -4's instead of -3's though, I dont know. Here's an shot of one from when I worked at NRE.
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=244902

DME 6361 07-07-2009 04:54 PM

I would like to know
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Freericks (Post 93808)
As Nick points out, the modern way to tell is look it up on the internet. Truth is that today model designations are somewhat randomly applied by different railroads and different remanufacturers.

EMD never made an original SD40-3.

Some locomotives that folks will call SD40-2s today started life as SD45s and SDP45s (and the latter, we are now told were really SD45Ms all along).

Personally, I say find a source that you like and stick with their nomenclature. Don't drive yourself crazy with the difference from different sources.

Who told you they were sd45m's all along? That doesn't make a bit of sense to me. Your talking about 3 totally different engines here. An sdp is with built in passenger generator; sd45 is with 20 cylinders; and a 45m is rebuilt and probably QES equipped which they would never do these days cause they would change out the primemover into 40-2 specs[so they last 20 years longer without breaking a crank shaft] with QES upgrade and come out of the shop as an 40-3.

espeekiwi 11-09-2009 01:13 PM

i was of the understanding that sd45m's were all rebuilds of wrecked/damaged/rebuilt/ sd40's 42's -2's 45's.

the T designation was specificaly southern pacific's own idea taken to GM EMD
and were rolled off the assembly line as such with the modifications to the cooling systems , lower geared truck motors and what we would usually call here in NZ traction Control and multi unit control system..

all for the purpose of mountain railroading.

this is where the long nose and short nose was differentiated as the long nose T's was where all the electronics for the remote slave controls were installed so a swing in helper could be operated from the lead locomotive on the front of the train. aslong as there was one long nose sd40-2t or 45-2t in the lead of the swingin helper consist all others would do what the -2t did and the -2t did what the lead locomotive did.

the later sd40's were built on sd45 frames so were the SDP's as the larger fuel tank was then split in two for carrying water.

also built on sd45 frames were the tunnel motor's

the reason for this was a fopar on GM's part and also a cost saving and face saving operation.

the sd45 proved to have a weak/poorly designed engine so the SP for example opted to purchase the sd40-2's on 45 frames which meant two things.

GM could still sell out the 45' just with out the new prime mover and it also meant that the railroad companies now had a locomotive with a longer range as the sd45 frame could support a larger fuel tank. and B: the option was there to upgrade to the 45 prime mover once the gremlins in the motor were fixed.

this is why all the -2's that were rebuilt were called SD45M's because the were originally meant to be 45's.

Bryan Jones 11-10-2009 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espeekiwi (Post 102878)
i was of the understanding that sd45m's were all rebuilds of wrecked/damaged/rebuilt/ sd40's 42's -2's 45's.

the T designation was specificaly southern pacific's own idea taken to GM EMD
and were rolled off the assembly line as such with the modifications to the cooling systems , lower geared truck motors and what we would usually call here in NZ traction Control and multi unit control system..

all for the purpose of mountain railroading.

this is where the long nose and short nose was differentiated as the long nose T's was where all the electronics for the remote slave controls were installed so a swing in helper could be operated from the lead locomotive on the front of the train. aslong as there was one long nose sd40-2t or 45-2t in the lead of the swingin helper consist all others would do what the -2t did and the -2t did what the lead locomotive did.

the later sd40's were built on sd45 frames so were the SDP's as the larger fuel tank was then split in two for carrying water.

also built on sd45 frames were the tunnel motor's

the reason for this was a fopar on GM's part and also a cost saving and face saving operation.

the sd45 proved to have a weak/poorly designed engine so the SP for example opted to purchase the sd40-2's on 45 frames which meant two things.

GM could still sell out the 45' just with out the new prime mover and it also meant that the railroad companies now had a locomotive with a longer range as the sd45 frame could support a larger fuel tank. and B: the option was there to upgrade to the 45 prime mover once the gremlins in the motor were fixed.

this is why all the -2's that were rebuilt were called SD45M's because the were originally meant to be 45's.

Not to be rude, you you are completely incorrect on all of this.

SD45M was an internal designation used by EMD for the SDP45's built for Erie Lackawanna. These units differed from normal SDP45's in that they did NOT have steam generators. EL chose to purchase these units because the SDP45 used a long frame than the SD45 and was equiped with a 5000 gallon fuel tank rather than 4000 gallon tank of the SD45.

SD40T-2 and SD45T-2 were the designations given to SD40-2's and SD45-2's with the special tunnel cooling system. This was developed jointly by EMD and SP. These units had a normal 62:15 gear ratio just like other SD40 and SD45 types. As built there was no special traction control system. Other than the special cooling system and the fact that the tunnel motors used a loner frame than the standard models, the SD40T-2 and SD45T-2 were electrically and mechanically the same as SD40-2's and SD45-2's.

Some SD40T-2's (as well as SD40-2's) were indeed built with extended length short hoods to allow for Locotrol equipment to be installed.

The SD40 and SD45 used the same exact frame, as well as the SD38 and SD39 models. The SDP45 was built on a longer frame due to the fact that there was not enough room on the frame of the standard SD45 to allow for the steam generator. When EMD introduced the DASH 2 series locomotives the frame was lengthened by 3 feet due to the longer wheelbase of the HT-C trucks and still be able to use a 4000 gallon fuel tank. The SD40T-2 and SD45T-2 models would use a longer frame than the normal SD40-2 and SD45-2 due to the longer radiator section of these models.

The 20 cylinder models later fell out of favor with SP due to increased fuel consumption and that in drag service the 45 series units produced the same about of tractive effort as the 40 series. Only in higher speed service was the 3600hp of the 45 series used to the full advantage and capability. SP had the largest number of EMD 20 cylinder units, with over 600 SD45, SD45T-2, SD45X and SDP45's on the roster. If there had been a problem with the prime mover they would never had acquired this many units. Early on there were crankshaft issues which were solved prio to introduction of the DASH 2 series.

There were no SD45M units built which were intended to be upgraded to SD45's, SD45T-2's or SDP45's like you speak of. Many of these units were later rebuilt to SD40-2 specs with 16-645 prime movers rated at 3000hp due to the demand for SD40-2 types in the second hand market.

Bryan Jones
Brooks,KY

troy12n 11-10-2009 08:53 PM

Also, not to further confuse things, SP SD45's rebuilt in the 1980's to SD40-2 standards on SD45 carbodies were called SD40M's as well. Some of these still exist on UP, some even repainted into UP colors.

espeekiwi 11-15-2009 05:48 AM

cheers brian, as i said, it was my understanding, not that it was correct.
however the information you have provided has given me greater understanding of the 40/45 series EMD's for that i thank you also.

Bryan Jones 11-15-2009 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troy12n (Post 102963)
Also, not to further confuse things, SP SD45's rebuilt in the 1980's to SD40-2 standards on SD45 carbodies were called SD40M's as well. Some of these still exist on UP, some even repainted into UP colors.

The units which were rebuilt for SP by Morrison Knudsen were classed as SD40M-2. SD40M does not indicate. SD40M would just indicate a modified SD40 and that it has not had an electrical or control system upgrade.

Bryan Jones
Brooks,KY

TheRoadForeman 11-17-2009 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CP 8848 (Post 93798)
Is there a way to tell between an SD40-2 and an SD40-3 (for example does it look externally different, sound different, etc)

Look for the stencil on the cab! :lol:

GMEMD 11-17-2009 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRoadForeman (Post 103381)
Look for the stencil on the cab! :lol:

LOL. Ya, or look at the FRA blue card lol!:lol:

Cameraman 11-17-2009 02:41 PM

One thing you can look for
 
One point that might help the original poster, the dash 3s will have a computer screen on the back cab wall that can be visible from the outside. These screens are often have a diagram of the locomotive and can scroll through menus.

One railroad's GP-38-3's have a diagram of a 6 axle loco on this backwall computer screen, it is an overlay or might be what shows if the lights in the screen were off, but none the less it works. I find it funny a GP shows a SD layout. I wonder if all GPs from with this electrical system have this same SD diagram?

My guess is yes.

CM

GMEMD 11-17-2009 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cameraman (Post 103456)
One point that might help the original poster, the dash 3s will have a computer screen on the back cab wall that can be visible from the outside. These screens are often have a diagram of the locomotive and can scroll through menus.

One railroad's GP-38-3's have a diagram of a 6 axle loco on this backwall computer screen, it is an overlay or might be what shows if the lights in the screen were off, but none the less it works. I find it funny a GP shows a SD layout. I wonder if all GPs from with this electrical system have this same SD diagram?

My guess is yes.

CM

Yes, the system is QES, and the screen is generic (6 axle/SD40).

scottychaos 11-20-2009 06:50 PM

Concerning the Erie Lackawanna SDP45's vs. SD45M's..

Yes, its perhaps technically true that EMD might have internally referred to the second batch of EL SDP45's as "SD45M" units..but that doesnt mean we should all suddenly start referring to "EL SD45M" units..(I dont think anyone has said that in this thread specifically..but I have seen it a few places around the internet lately) because really, there has never been any such critter as an EL SD45M..outside of some obscure EMD paperwork..they always were EL SDP45's..
why do I say this?
because of 40 years of history..

In my opinion, what EMD called them internally is basically irrelevant..
EMD might have labeled them SD45M's for their own internal record keeping, but the more important fact (IMO) is that EL made the decision to call them SDP45's once they hit the rails!

(I think the first batch was in fact labeled SDP45 by both EMD and EL..
its only the second batch that was labeled SD45M by EMD but SDP45 by EL..)

So apart from some obscure internal EMD paperwork, these units spent their entire existance being called SDP45's..by EL, and by everyone..

So to me..I think its much more accurate to refer to them as SDP45's rather than SD45M's..because history has recorded them as SDP45's from day-1..
I see no reason to re-write history! ;)

Today there a billion references and historic photos of Erie Lackawanna SDP45's..
and Conrail SDP45's..(Conrail actually labeled them all SDP45 on the side on the cab...Conrail inherited SDP45's from EL..they inherited no SD45M's from EL..because EL SD45M's did not exist in 1976)

in contrast, there are one or two internet rumblings about "maybe we should call them SD45M's instead"..and zero historic photos ever taken of an EL SD45M..
because EL SD45M's never existed until the these recent internet rumblings..
IMO..EL SD45M's still have never existed..and will never exist.

So sorry..to me and probably 99.9% of rail historians..they will always be EL SDP45's..
what EMD might have written on some intenal paperwork is IMO irrelevant..
History says SDP45..
EL says SDP45..
Conrail says SDP45..
every EL roster ever written says SDP45..
every photo ever taken was labeled SDP45..

Google "Erie Lackawanna SDP45" = 4,300 hits
Google "Erie Lackawanna SD45M" = No results found for "erie lackawanna SD45M". (zero hits)

Im going with SDP45! ;)

I know this really wasnt being implied here..that we should call them EL SD45M's..
but I feel the need to squash this idea before it gets too far out of control!
I am starting to see younger folks referring to EL SD45M's..its just wrong.. ;)
they never existed..

thanks,
Scot

chuckman 11-21-2009 10:30 PM

I recently noticed on Bullsheet that CSX will be possibly making some of their Sd40-2s into -3 standards. I find this not hard to believe, as they have already started making SD50-3s. Fortunately this will probably mean they are planning on getting more use out of them!

coborn35 11-24-2009 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMEMD (Post 93826)
Also true with ex DMIR SD40T-2 units, that have been rebuilt as CN locomotives, as they have had QES (an electronic load control system built by Wabtec) installed and are now called SD40-3's.

Just a note, the SD40-3 designation for the SD45T-2's and SD45-2's on the Missabe was a DM&IR designation, not a CN one. CN just rolled with it.


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