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-   -   Great copter shot (http://www.railpictures.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17363)

MassArt Images 01-21-2015 11:34 PM

Great copter shot
 
[photoid=515367]

What an impressive structure and probably the only way to get that photo is with a quadcopter.

The wide-angle distortion is a little bothersome with the horizon tilting to the right and the well cars on the trestle's apex tilting to the left. As the quality of the built-in cameras get better these photo platforms will be a railfans must-have item. I noticed no exif data. Is Doyle using a DJ Phantom?

bigbassloyd 01-21-2015 11:59 PM

From what I remember from seeing his copter during the Santa Train, I think it is a Phantom Vision or something along those lines.

Loyd L.

Dennis A. Livesey 01-22-2015 02:12 AM

These quad copter cameras usually have an extremely wide lens. The distortion works for me actually. But Doyle surely has the option of straightening it out in something like Photoshop.

JimThias 01-22-2015 02:25 AM

The wide angle distortion of the Hero and Vision cameras annoys me, especially when you have someone like Grumpy killin' it with a DSLR in the air.

http://blog.grumpysworld.com/?paged=2

I have a Hero4 and have been shooting video on narrow only. Unfortunately, for still shots it's limited to medium and wide.

MassArt Images 01-22-2015 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimThias (Post 183316)
The wide angle distortion of the Hero and Vision cameras annoys me, especially when you have someone like Grumpy killin' it with a DSLR in the air.

http://blog.grumpysworld.com/?paged=2

I have a Hero4 and have been shooting video on narrow only. Unfortunately, for still shots it's limited to medium and wide.

It seems to me a decent point and shoot camera with a built-in or Wi-Fi interface to the copter's software would be the answer. I wonder if the marketing departments of Canon, etc. are aware of the need?

KevinM 01-22-2015 03:38 AM

To do it right, you need a D4, a 24-70mm f/2.8, and a Bell 206 JetRanger with the cabin door removed. :D

Dennis A. Livesey 01-22-2015 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 183320)
To do it right, you need a D4, a 24-70mm f/2.8, and a Bell 206 JetRanger with the cabin door removed. :D

Been there. Only I used a Arri 435 and an Angenieux 24-290mm T/2.8. :-)

MassArt Images 01-22-2015 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 183320)
To do it right, you need a D4, a 24-70mm f/2.8, and a Bell 206 JetRanger with the cabin door removed. :D

I've been looking on Craigslist...:grin:

JRMDC 01-22-2015 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MassArt Images (Post 183305)
Is Doyle using a DJ Phantom?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbassloyd (Post 183307)
From what I remember from seeing his copter during the Santa Train, I think it is a Phantom Vision or something along those lines.

The shot has EXIF data, it was a PHANTOM VISION FC200

bigbassloyd 01-22-2015 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183328)
The shot has EXIF data, it was a PHANTOM VISION FC200

recalling it from memory is better.

Loyd L.

JRMDC 01-22-2015 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimThias (Post 183316)
The wide angle distortion of the Hero and Vision cameras annoys me, especially when you have someone like Grumpy killin' it with a DSLR in the air.

http://blog.grumpysworld.com/?paged=2

I just went through 4-5 of Grumpy's most recent posts, starting with the one you linked. "killin' it" ??? Not in my view, looks like he is a very boring aerial wedgie shooter. From what I see of the posts I looked at, he does nothing to take advantage of having a copter. He may be technically precise, his DSLR may offer a different distortion profile, but to what end? I'd much rather see shots of the type seen in this thread, despite the distortion (which is adjustable in post anyway, I would think).

BobE 01-22-2015 02:41 PM

I'm with Kevin and Dennis. The wide angle distortion from the ?? Go Pro ?? or whatever is truly annoying. PS Kevin, good results also come from a Cessna 172 with the window open and a pilot who knows how to keep the wing and landing gear out of the frame. Cheaper than a helo by orders of magnitude, too.

KevinM 01-22-2015 03:32 PM

Hi Bob,

I fly a lot of aerial photography sorties these days with the Civil Air Patrol....not much search and rescue stuff happening since General Aviation kind of died a few years back. Aerial reconnaissance is pretty much what we do now.

Photographing stationary subjects in a fixed-wing airplane is not all that difficult, but attempting to put a photographer in a position to capture a specific scene that involves a moving object like a train, as well as other elements, is a whole LOT tougher. Unlike a helo, which can hover in the exact spot and wait for the scene to develop (wind conditions permitting), the fixed wing aircraft is continually moving (if we want to stay healthy ;)). Probably the slowest I can safely get and still maneuver in a 182 or 206 is about 75 Kt. That's just over 86 mph for the ground-pounders. Assuming I know what the photographer is trying to capture, I've got to assess the train's speed and position, as well as my own, and take into account what the winds aloft are doing, as I try to TIME getting the aircraft to that exact spot, with exactly the right bank angle, at exactly the right moment. It takes as much luck as it does skill.

Of course, if there is terrain around, things get even more interesting for the fixed-wing guys. I also have limitations on how low I can legally go. The helo can go as low as he dares, as long as he does not pose an undue hazard to persons or property on the ground. I say "dares" because helos still need to be concerned about the possibility of an engine failure and being able to get it on the ground safely if that happens.

If I am out to shoot an RP Photo of the Week, I'll take the helo any day over the fixed wing. Yes, it is several times more expensive. But it will be the difference between simply coming home with an aerial shot of a train, and coming home with a shot that will be worth the investment.

MassArt Images 01-22-2015 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 183336)
Hi Bob,

If I am out to shoot an RP Photo of the Week, I'll take the helo any day over the fixed wing. Yes, it is several times more expensive. But it will be the difference between simply coming home with an aerial shot of a train, and coming home with a shot that will be worth the investment.

So Kevin how big are the checks that RP.net send you...:twisted::lol:

bigbassloyd 01-22-2015 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 183336)

If I am out to shoot an RP Photo of the Week, I'll take the helo any day over the fixed wing. Yes, it is several times more expensive. But it will be the difference between simply coming home with an aerial shot of a train, and coming home with a shot that will be worth the investment.

I hope you meant to say capture an image that you'll sell many prints of.

Loyd L.

Ween 01-22-2015 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183331)
I just went through 4-5 of Grumpy's most recent posts, starting with the one you linked. "killin' it" ??? Not in my view, looks like he is a very boring aerial wedgie shooter. From what I see of the posts I looked at, he does nothing to take advantage of having a copter. He may be technically precise, his DSLR may offer a different distortion profile, but to what end? I'd much rather see shots of the type seen in this thread, despite the distortion (which is adjustable in post anyway, I would think).

Are you aware of where Grumpy 'fans? You will not see shots like the type seen in this thread...

JimThias 01-22-2015 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183331)
I just went through 4-5 of Grumpy's most recent posts, starting with the one you linked. "killin' it" ??? Not in my view, looks like he is a very boring aerial wedgie shooter. From what I see of the posts I looked at, he does nothing to take advantage of having a copter. He may be technically precise, his DSLR may offer a different distortion profile, but to what end? I'd much rather see shots of the type seen in this thread, despite the distortion (which is adjustable in post anyway, I would think).

4 or 5 posts? He's been posting train pics on that blog for many years (and on a regular basis...he's quite the diehard blogger!), and I'm guessing posting aerial pics for the last 6 months to a year. You're gonna need to look at a much larger sampling than that. I'd post some examples here but I'm not sure how he feels about his images being posted elsewhere on the web (especially on RP, which I doubt he's very fond of).

So far, he's got THE highest quality aerial train pics I've seen.

I have no idea who Grumpy is nor have I ever even seen a photo of him. However, I think he is one of the most technically accurate and intelligent photographers I've ever followed. And for someone like me who is super OCD about photography, it was natural for me to become a fan of his work.

BobE 01-22-2015 08:56 PM

Kevin,

Can't disagree with anything you said. If somebody is footing the bill for the helo, more power to you.

Bob, ground-bound for the foreseeable future.

JRMDC 01-22-2015 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimThias (Post 183316)
The wide angle distortion of the Hero and Vision cameras annoys me, especially when you have someone like Grumpy killin' it with a DSLR in the air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ween (Post 183343)
Are you aware of where Grumpy 'fans? You will not see shots like the type seen in this thread...

I think I expressed myself poorly.

Jim, you may be simply saying that Grumpy is a technically careful and precise user of aerial photography equipment. Fine. That doesn't constitute "killin' it" in my book, just like, in my view, your ability to precisely level your photographs doesn't constitute "killin' it". It is something you do extremely well, and is worth emulating, tis all. So maybe I overreacted to your rhetoric, taking it to mean something it may not have meant.

Chris, I presume grumpy is located somewhere in the rural parts of the flat plains of this country. Which means, I suspect, that aerial photography inherently cannot add much in the way of compositional value to photography from those parts. In no way is that a shortcoming of his.

Thinking more broadly, when I think about what 'copter-based aerial photography can contribute to our hobby, I am not thinking about what I will call "sky wedgies." I am thinking about what I find to be unique perspectives. I think the Massey shot has a really cool sweep of its curve through the frame, one in which not only the horizontal curvature but the vertical "ramp" come into play. It is sweet!

This one by Massey tells the story of "bridge", with a very strong element of "valley", in a way which is unique to aerials. (But ugh, the winter lack of foliage! So ugly! Fortunately, IIRC, Chris Stearns has a somewhat similar shot from the summer.)

[photoid=508199]
Both of those shots are shots that, in my view, represent views unique to 'copter shots. They fit my vaunted category of "I wish I took that shot" images. They expand my perception of what is possible in photography (just like when I first started to see ultra-wide lens shots). Lots of other Massey 'copter shots do not, the Grumpy 'copter shots I have seen do not. No big deal.

Dennis A. Livesey 01-22-2015 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183331)
I just went through 4-5 of Grumpy's most recent posts, starting with the one you linked. "killin' it" ??? Not in my view, looks like he is a very boring aerial wedgie shooter. From what I see of the posts I looked at, he does nothing to take advantage of having a copter. He may be technically precise, his DSLR may offer a different distortion profile, but to what end? I'd much rather see shots of the type seen in this thread, despite the distortion (which is adjustable in post anyway, I would think).

I have read Grumpy off and on for years. Back in the last days of film and the first days of digital, I avidly read his blog for what i could learn from his, shall we say, unique POV. I would certainly agree he takes refining his work to a very high technical level. Thus I can see Jim's attraction to that.

But I am with J on the "to what end"? He does nothing but endless pumpkin wedgies. On the ground or in the air, no difference. I stopped reading because I could not see growing purpose to his efforts.

My livelihood once depended on making sure expensive actor performances were properly focused. Therefore grant me that I know a little about what is photographically sharp and what is not. So I am sure you can understand that when Grumpy presented five images magnified and he discerns invisible-to-me focus differences (save one), I had to get off the train.

JimThias 01-22-2015 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183348)
I think I expressed myself poorly.

Jim, you may be simply saying that Grumpy is a technically careful and precise user of aerial photography equipment. Fine. That doesn't constitute "killin' it" in my book, just like, in my view, your ability to precisely level your photographs doesn't constitute "killin' it". It is something you do extremely well, and is worth emulating, tis all. So maybe I overreacted to your rhetoric, taking it to mean something it may not have meant.

Anyone who has mastered a particular genre of photography is "killin' it" in my book. Sorry you don't agree. :razz:

Insert a non-distorted Rahm, IN., bridge in this scene and maybe you'll appreciate his work more. http://blog.grumpysworld.com/wp-cont...orapids_1s.jpg

JRMDC 01-22-2015 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimThias (Post 183350)
Anyone who has mastered a particular genre of photography is "killin' it" in my book. Sorry you don't agree. :razz:

Insert a non-distorted Rahm, IN., bridge in this scene and maybe you'll appreciate his work more. http://blog.grumpysworld.com/wp-cont...orapids_1s.jpg

I have no interest in the mastering of sky wedgies. I have no interest in the mastery of changing rolls of toilet paper in the bathroom. Presumably one of the 7 billion people in the world is killin' it in the bathroom. Awesome! :)

I have no idea what it means to insert a bridge into a scene in this context. As you have recently inserted a train into a scene elsewhere :) perhaps you can insert a bridge here so I can tell what in the heck you mean by what you wrote. All I see is a sky wedgie that doesn't do much for me and, in particular in this context, gives me absolutely no reason to spend more time looking at the photographer's work, despite your recommendation that there is something there I should be glad to see and learn about.

Mind you, it is a lot more interesting than the shots I saw in my review of 4-5 posts. It is nicely done. I would imaging someone living in the flat plains would see that and say - hey, I can get a little bit more visual interest in some of my shots.

JimThias 01-22-2015 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183352)

I have no idea what it means to insert a bridge into a scene in this context.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...4/facepalm.jpg

JRMDC 01-22-2015 11:25 PM

I think I figured out what you meant, Jim. I hadn't looked previously at the location of the Massey shot, so I didn't recognize your reference to Rahm, IN.

And the answer is, no, wouldn't appreciate his work more.

JimThias 01-23-2015 12:00 AM

We'll just have to agree to disagree then, J. :-)

JRMDC 01-23-2015 12:10 AM

I refuse to agree to that, Jim; you must agree to agree with me. :)

Noct Foamer 01-23-2015 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183331)
I just went through 4-5 of Grumpy's most recent posts, starting with the one you linked. "killin' it" ??? Not in my view, looks like he is a very boring aerial wedgie shooter. From what I see of the posts I looked at, he does nothing to take advantage of having a copter. He may be technically precise, his DSLR may offer a different distortion profile, but to what end? I'd much rather see shots of the type seen in this thread, despite the distortion (which is adjustable in post anyway, I would think).


I used to read a lot of Grumpy's stuff, back when he lived in Lincoln. Then, he moved to Lawrence (where I graduated from college) and I sort of wandered away from his blog. I used to write humorous comments to his posts and we would email. I'm a bit surprised he's still at it--didn't he get married? That usually kills off your fun.

All in all I've had some of the same thoughts you do, only perhaps I'm a bit more charitable. I was often left a bit mystified why Grumpy would obsess with minute details of camera gear, but basically shoot the same three shots over and over again. (Every now and then he did step out of his zone and come back with some shots that were pure genius!) I have not seen his latest drone shots, but it appears the only thing that has changed is the altitude. Only Grumpy would put $4,000 worth of camera gear at high risk, just to get a wedgie! :D I've thought about going this route too, but the Dakota winds are merciless. Whatever I bought wouldn't last long. :sad: Anyway, the ability to shoot in a third dimension would open up a lot of creativity, one would think. Like I said, I used to live where Grumpy does, and am familiar with the area. There are some much cooler places to take drone shots than a generic muddy field. I have to say this about Grumpy though. The guy is having fun, and he's been around a long time. He certainly has his fans, which is more than can be said about me I suppose.

I too have rented planes for photography, including foamer photography. I'll give a quick story about the time I hired a helicopter in Hawaii (Kuaii to be specific.) There's a big collapsed volcanic cone there, and I wanted a shot straight down into it. I found a guy who for a thousand bucks or so would take the doors off the helicopter and turn the bird sideways. Way cool! :cool: So, my wife and I got on and off we went. It was actually pretty cold up there but we persevered. The copter circled over the cone and then suddenly turned sideways. I quickly started shooting straight down--WOW! My wife was sitting on the same side of the copter as I was--nothing between her and the ground ~3,000 ft. below but her seat belt. I could hear her screams over the roar of the blades!!!! When we got back, the pilot said, "You didn't tell your wife about the sideways shot?" Well no, I sorta forgot. Wife said she had never been so scared out of her wits like that before! The upshot was she said she would NEVER get on another helicopter with me again-EVER! And she hasn't, not even in Iceland. :o


Kent in SD

KevinM 01-23-2015 12:50 PM

My view is that UAV photography will probably end up being a fad, just like night flash photography. When the first stop-action flash images appeared on RP, everyone ooohed and ahhhed because it was a novelty. Now, they are pretty much passe. Now, with some exceptions, your first thought is: "Oh, now so-and-so is doing the me-too, thermonuclear, night shot." The copter thing has "taken off" :lol: because for the vast majority of people, an aerial view of anything, much less a train, is a rare treat. Eventually, the novelty will wear off, with a growing parade of not-terribly-exciting, soft-focus, distorted "sky wedges". Equipment will get better, but in the end, it will join all of the other photographic genres. Many will try it. Few will master it.

Dennis A. Livesey 01-23-2015 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 183367)
My view is that UAV photography will probably end up being a fad, just like night flash photography. When the first stop-action flash images appeared on RP, everyone ooohed and ahhhed because it was a novelty. Now, they are pretty much passe. Now, with some exceptions, your first thought is: "Oh, now so-and-so is doing the me-too, thermonuclear, night shot." The copter thing has "taken off" :lol: because for the vast majority of people, an aerial view of anything, much less a train, is a rare treat. Eventually, the novelty will wear off, with a growing parade of not-terribly-exciting, soft-focus, distorted "sky wedges". Equipment will get better, but in the end, it will join all of the other photographic genres. Many will try it. Few will master it.

Putting down all aerial photography as a "fad" is rather harsh don't you think Kevin?

I agree there is a certain amount of fad-isum and novelty but that is true of all technological advances. And yes I expect a lot of dross aerial photography to assault our eyes.

On the other hand, I have enjoyed immensely the work of Gary Knapp, Sean Hoyden, Thomas Nanos, Stephen Husser, and Peter Lerro. I am glad they got those tools to do their night work.

I therefore am eagerly looking forward to masterly made photos from angles never before seen in human existence.

Ron Flanary 01-23-2015 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbassloyd (Post 183307)
From what I remember from seeing his copter during the Santa Train, I think it is a Phantom Vision or something along those lines.

Loyd L.

I'm using a homemade drone made with balsa wood, discarded plastic utensils from KFC, duct tape and four miniature gasoline motors with spit valves and miniature turbo chargers. I have an old Kodak 616 with folding bellows hanging below using florist wire.

So far I haven't been able to get it off the ground, but I'm still fine tuning. It's just a matter of time...

Ron F.

bigbassloyd 01-23-2015 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Flanary (Post 183370)
I'm using a homemade drone made with balsa wood, discarded plastic utensils from KFC, duct tape and four miniature gasoline motors with spit valves and miniature turbo chargers. I have an old Kodak 616 with folding bellows hanging below using florist wire.

So far I haven't been able to get it off the ground, but I'm still fine tuning. It's just a matter of time...

Ron F.

I looked all over for you during the santa train, but I guess you're a good hider.. :D

Loyd L.

Ron Flanary 01-23-2015 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183331)
I just went through 4-5 of Grumpy's most recent posts, starting with the one you linked. "killin' it" ??? Not in my view, looks like he is a very boring aerial wedgie shooter.

I would agree. There wasn't much in the way of creative composition there---just a bunch of high altitude shots of BNSF units. Z-z-z-z-z-z

I really like Doyle's shot of the approach to the bridge south of Evansville (that's a former L&N line, I might add). I actually love the wide angle distortion.

Ron F.

KevinM 01-23-2015 06:17 PM

Hey Dennis,

No, not putting down night flash photography or quad-copter photography, and not sayin' that there aren't some photographers getting some really stunning shots with both techniques. Just sayin' that when each of these "new" forms of photography first debuted, virtually anything shot that way would skyrocket to To24. Now that the tools to do either one are readily available, we're going to see a lot of mundane shots, and the novelty value is going to rapidly wear off. Even our resident RP-critic Janusz appears not to be very impressed with the me-too shots that are bound to result when these things become as ubiquitous as the railfan with the little bitty video cam and a tripod.

I think that the last statement in my post said it all. Once the fad wears off, we're going to start looking critically at these images, and there will be those (such as the folks you mentioned) who will master it, and those who will shoot mundane "flash wedges" or "sky wedges".

Ron Flanary 01-23-2015 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbassloyd (Post 183371)
I looked all over for you during the santa train, but I guess you're a good hider.. :D

Loyd L.

My wife and I only chased it from Speers Ferry over to Frisco this year. I've only got a half million shots of the train from the last 40 years, so it's lost a little of its mystique for me. Still, it's a cool operation to see each year.

Ween 01-23-2015 07:26 PM

Until you use a KC-135 for your aerial shots, you're just a child:

[photoid=231017]

:lol:

JRMDC 01-23-2015 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinM (Post 183373)
Hey Dennis,
...
I think that the last statement in my post said it all. Once the fad wears off, we're going to start looking critically at these images, and there will be those (such as the folks you mentioned) who will master it, and those who will shoot mundane "flash wedges" or "sky wedges".

Pretty much talking past each other. Dennis looks forward to the good stuff enabled by the new technology, Kevin points out that dull stuff is coming also. :) Both are right.

Quote:

Even our resident RP-critic Janusz appears not to be very impressed with the me-too shots that are bound to result when these things become as ubiquitous as the railfan with the little bitty video cam and a tripod.
So true!

Is it too much of an exaggeration to say that Beebe, were he shooting today with his equipment and his mindset, would be known far and wide as Mr. wedgie-to-excess? :)

What would Beebe do with a go-pro and a copter? I bet he would do some wonderful stuff! Hmm, who would be the modern equivalent, we need someone who is good at photography, offers a bit of flair in his life (trumpet player, maybe?), gets around, knows everyone, but still is as old as the hills, had boots on the ground in the steam era ...

Someone get Ron Flanary set up with this stuff! What can that creaky mind of his conjure up! :)

Mgoldman 01-23-2015 07:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRMDC (Post 183377)
What would Beebe do with a go-pro and a copter? I bet he would do some wonderful stuff!

I'll bet you're right - wonderful wedgies.

So - what's wrong with a good wedge shot? It's not a bad style, just another style:

http://forums.railpictures.net/attac...1&d=1422046442

/Mitch

Mgoldman 01-23-2015 07:55 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ween (Post 183376)
Until you use a KC-135 for your aerial shots, you're just a child:

:lol:

Too rich for my blood!
(Though used, seems tempting through B&H)

http://forums.railpictures.net/attac...1&d=1422046534


/Mitch

KevinM 01-23-2015 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ween (Post 183376)
Until you use a KC-135 for your aerial shots, you're just a child:

[photoid=231017]

:lol:

Actually, I do have some AR shots that I took on roughly a dozen and a half 135 missions that I was fortunate to ride along on back in the late 80s and early 90s. Most of them were night missions, where photography was just not possible, but I do have some daytime images of F-4Ds getting gas off the Jersey Coast. I believe they were from the 108th TFW at McGuire. That's a Guard unit that later converted to tankers. Anyway my experience was that the optics on the side windows weren't all that great, but they were just awesome down in the pod with the visor door up. Been a long time since I had the opportunity. Since the '91 Gulf War, our local unit, the 157th (NHANG) has only been able to accommodate a few ride-along sorties for the CAP. I believe that unit is scheduled to get the KC-46A in a couple of years. Their current birds are just a couple of years younger than me! :smile:

bigbassloyd 01-23-2015 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Flanary (Post 183374)
My wife and I only chased it from Speers Ferry over to Frisco this year. I've only got a half million shots of the train from the last 40 years, so it's lost a little of its mystique for me. Still, it's a cool operation to see each year.


I'm not sure where all I shot it, but I did knock down most of the must have shots that I am familiar with, so who knows if I'll return.. lol :D

Loyd L.


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